Burgess - A Question Mark On Defense

[mgteich]

I don't think that we have much of a clue as to how Belichick intends to use Burgess. Apparently he is a major role in mind or he wouldn't have given up the two draft choices for him.

While we disagree some, but I think we generally know what Belichick wants out of Mayo, Guyton, Thomas, Woods and Banta-Cain. All have their roles. Bruschi also has his role. In the end, there are few reps for more than six linebackers. Burgess will take reps from these six.

 

[satz]

As resis,price and others he has been lining up as a pur 4-3 pass rush end all camp. I really do not thing he is going to start playing OLB during a real game and not in training camp.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I don't think that we have much of a clue as to how Belichick intends to use Burgess. Apparently he is a major role in mind or he wouldn't have given up the two draft choices for him.

While we disagree some, but I think we generally know what Belichick wants out of Mayo, Guyton, Thomas, Woods and Banta-Cain. All have their roles. Bruschi also has his role. In the end, there are few reps for more than six linebackers. Burgess will take reps from these six.

I think BB knows that without pressure on the QB, any defense would be in trouble. Hopefully BB is thinking back to the Jets game that cost us the playoffs when we gave up a first down on 3rd and forever because we lacked a pass rush, and visualizing Burgess as a 3rd and long player that can generate a rush.

 

[Rob0729]

As resis,price and others he has been lining up as a pur 4-3 pass rush end all camp. I really do not thing he is going to start playing OLB during a real game and not in training camp.

Well, in fairness, they were only running the 4-3 the week he was here when practice was open to the public and media. We have no idea how they have been using him behind closed doors now that training camp has broken (Burgess came in about a week before the end of camp).

I fully expect him to play OLB and just not situationally. He has played OLB in a 3-4 defense based on the Pats' 3-4 while he was in Oakland. He has a decent knowledge of the system and the position. He might not be an every down OLB, but I would expect him to get the majority of the snaps at OLB.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Well, in fairness, they were only running the 4-3 the week he was here when practice was open to the public and media. We have no idea how they have been using him behind closed doors now that training camp has broken (Burgess came in about a week before the end of camp).

I fully expect him to play OLB and just not situationally. He has played OLB in a 3-4 defense based on the Pats' 3-4 while he was in Oakland. He has a decent knowledge of the system and the position. He might not be an every down OLB, but I would expect him to get the majority of the snaps at OLB.

Burgess will play 20-30 snaps a game and those mostly will be passing downs where he can pin his ears back and put some pressure on the passer. He is not a 85-90% LB/DE in this D. If he forces a incomplete on 3nd and 8, or comes up with a sack or even forces an INT once a game, he is worth his roster spot IMO.

 

[Rob0729]

Burgess will play 20-30 snaps a game and those mostly will be passing downs where he can pin his ears back and put some pressure on the passer. He is not a 85-90% LB/DE in this D. If he forces a incomplete on 3nd and 8, or comes up with a sack or even forces an INT once a game, he is worth his roster spot IMO.

His run defense ability is very underrated. He can stop the run. He will probably see play on at least some running downs. Initially, he may be used more sparingly, but I bet he could be in for the majority of plays by midseason. No one else has really won that OLB/DE position from him.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I'm starting to think that the Pats are going to show more four man fronts instead of 3 man fronts. I just don't see them having enough at LB in order for them to run a full time 3-4. In fact, with the drafting of Brace, addition of Burgess and the strong play by Pryor, BB will find a way to get them on the field as much as possible. In addition, I think the less LB's on the field, the more plays you will get out of Mayo and Thomas because their responsibilities increase. Lastly, BB can substitute a 4 LB for an extra safety like Chung who is more athletic than Woods or Bruschi and can lay the lumber. Because the Pats may take very early leads, expect to see more of a 4 down lineman, 2 LB's and 5 DB's. For example:

On early downs:

DE: Seymour
DT: Brace/Pryor
DT:Wilfork
DE: Warren
OLB: Thomas
MLB: Mayo/Guyton/Bruschi/Lenon
OLB: Woods/Guyton
CB: Springs/Wilhite/Butler
CB:Bodden/Butler/Wheatley
FS: Sanders/Chung/McGowen
SS: Merriweather/Chung/McGowen


On passing downs:

DE: Burgess
DT: Seymour
DT: Warren
DE: Green/Banta-Cain
OLB: Thomas
MLB: Mayo
Hybrid SS/OLB: Chung
CB: Springs/Wilhite/Wheatley
CB: Bodden/Butler/Wheatley
FS: Sanders
SS: Merriweather

This certainly looks a lot better than running a 3-4 just because you like to run a 3-4. I'm sure Belichick is going to run more of these looks to hide the weakness at LB. Finally, notice that Warren and Seymour are inside on passing downs. We all know that when Seymour rushes inside with a 4 man line, he's almost impossible to block. Add to the fact that Burgess is excellent off of the edge, this defense can be pretty damn good this year.

 

[RobertWeathers]

His run defense ability is very underrated. He can stop the run. He will probably see play on at least some running downs. Initially, he may be used more sparingly, but I bet he could be in for the majority of plays by midseason. No one else has really won that OLB/DE position from him.

I agree. It drives me nuts though. Personally, when I have seen him play (not a ton, I admit) he seems to take on the TE, or guard & hold his ground and with his quickness seem to slide off and get in on the play. However, I read these scouting reports and one says that he is an adequete run defender, sets the edge, drives blockers back, but not a great tackler and another one says he is undersized and gets pushed back. undersized??? The guy is 6-2 265?? In theory, that body-type should give him good leverage to play with. His arms don't seem that long so maybe he can't keep his distance and control the blocker. I think, as long as he knows the D ok and plays with good fundementals, he can be decent at playing the run as their OLB.

My .02$

 

[Scouse Patriot]

I think we do, he'll play both 4-3 DE (probrably on known passing downs) and 3-4 OLB at times, or if he can do it maybe more. No overcomplication required. He's here to rush the passer and has a knack of stopping the run, wether thats every down, 1st, 2nd, 3rd...2nd and long, 3rd and long...longer than long or just a long, long way.

We gave up two picks for Burgess, we're not going to trade for a guy who just doesn't fit into the ideas Bill has for this season. The only question marks that hang over Burgess are is he good enough to transition and better than what we already have. When taking into account the 4-3 (or whatever variant we employ) and 3-4 defences I think is he in pure pass rushing roles.

IMO anyways..

 

[spacecrime]

As resis,price and others he has been lining up as a pur 4-3 pass rush end all camp. I really do not thing he is going to start playing OLB during a real game and not in training camp.

Was he here all camp? I thought he came in late. Anyway, I just figure if he's only been here a couple of weeks, it's too early to say what he will or won't be doing in December and January based on one week of training camp observation is August.

 

[Ring 6]

Well, in fairness, they were only running the 4-3 the week he was here when practice was open to the public and media. We have no idea how they have been using him behind closed doors now that training camp has broken (Burgess came in about a week before the end of camp).

I fully expect him to play OLB and just not situationally. He has played OLB in a 3-4 defense based on the Pats' 3-4 while he was in Oakland. He has a decent knowledge of the system and the position. He might not be an every down OLB, but I would expect him to get the majority of the snaps at OLB.

You continue to say this and now support it by arguing what must be happening is that he started playing OLB when public practices ended.
Burgess has NEVER BEEN A 34 OLB. He has NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF our system.
He played on a team with a DC who coached here once, and implemented a DIFFERENT system when he became DC. That system included a NOVELTY package where Burgess stood up to rush the QB instead of being in a 3 point stance.
Mike Vrabel lined up at NT a few times in odd packages here.
If I went to the Chiefs board and said he is going to play NT because he played it in the same system (Pioli was the GM here so the system must be the same) it is almost the same square peg argument you are trying to force into this round hole.
Of course when they told me he hasnt lined up at NT all camp, I could say he must have started after practices were closed.

 

[Ring 6]

His run defense ability is very underrated. He can stop the run. He will probably see play on at least some running downs. Initially, he may be used more sparingly, but I bet he could be in for the majority of plays by midseason. No one else has really won that OLB/DE position from him.

What are you basing his ability to play 2 gap run D being blocked by TEs, pulling Gs and OTs on? What system did he play 2 gap run D technique in? What makes you say his run D is underrated?

 

[Ring 6]

I think we are confusing our base D and our sub packages.
Base D is 34, and sub packages typically have 4 DL. The confusing part is that the sub packages have the 34 DEs at DT and 34 OLBS as DE.
So, are we calling them OLBs or DEs? Depends on the package.
Burgess is an OLB if we are in our 34 base, but other players are better than him in that role.
He is also an OLB in the sub, but that means he lines up like a DE, just as Mike Vrabel did last year.
Pierre Woods is a superior player in the base, because when we use the base, pass rushing ability (especially from the OLB less likely to rush) is a lower priority skill than run D and coverage ability. TBC is also.
We keep trying to change Burgess from what he is to what a full time player in our D would be. I dont know why He will be a huge contributor playing half or more of the snaps, as many or more than Vince Wilfork. Are we trying to figure out the question mark of
wilforks role?

 

[Rob0729]

You continue to say this and now support it by arguing what must be happening is that he started playing OLB when public practices ended.
Burgess has NEVER BEEN A 34 OLB. He has NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF our system.
He played on a team with a DC who coached here once, and implemented a DIFFERENT system when he became DC. That system included a NOVELTY package where Burgess stood up to rush the QB instead of being in a 3 point stance.
Mike Vrabel lined up at NT a few times in odd packages here.
If I went to the Chiefs board and said he is going to play NT because he played it in the same system (Pioli was the GM here so the system must be the same) it is almost the same square peg argument you are trying to force into this round hole.
Of course when they told me he hasnt lined up at NT all camp, I could say he must have started after practices were closed.

Saying he had no prior knowledge of the Pats system doesn't make it true. Do you really think Rob Ryan forgot everything that Belichick and Crennel taught him while he was here. When Ryan ran the 3-4 in Oakland, do you think he adopted the Steelers or Chargers' 3-4? Ryan used the same terminology and system in Oakland, but it failed and then they had to switch to something more modified.

Ryan was hired by the Raiders to bring the Patriots' defense to Oakland. Ryan was the second choice of Al Davis from the Patriots staff and was hired after Mangini turned down the interview for the DC job. To say that he didn't use much of the Patriots system in Oakland is either ignorance of the facts or a disregard of the facts.

 

[Rob0729]

What are you basing his ability to play 2 gap run D being blocked by TEs, pulling Gs and OTs on? What system did he play 2 gap run D technique in? What makes you say his run D is underrated?

From Scout Inc:

Burgess made only 10 starts last season. He is an accomplished pass rusher who has explosive burst off the ball and a good feel for bringing pressure off the edge. As an undersized DE, he can get under OL's pads quickly and show good use of hands and body lean. He knows how to set up his moves as an edge rusher and he has a good understanding of pass-rush sequence. Burgess is quick and athletic. He has above average strength when attempting power moves and he understands how to play with leverage. As a run defender, Burgess has good quickness in space and closes with good burst. He can chase down ball carriers from the backside and he uses his hands well to separate from blockers versus the run. Burgess has adequate strength to hold his ground against the run, but his lack of size can be an issue. He will give ground against strong offensive tackles. .

Derrick Burgess Scouting - New England Patriots - ESPN

From Christopher Price:

However, he still has a big upside. Tanier says Burgess is an “underrated” run defender, and offers a statistical argument: According to Football Outsiders, he made 18 tackles on running plays, and 15 of them qualified as “stops,” meaning he tackled the running back for a minimal gain. His 2007 numbers (33 run tackles, 28 stops) are similar.

“Burgess is very good at flattening out and making plays from the backside,” Tanier said. “If the running back is running right, Burgess can chase him from the left side of the formation and make the stop.”

It Is What It Is Deconstructing Derrick Burgess … again

The Pats have plugged in many veterans in this defense without a lot of time and asked them to play big roles in positions they have never played. Ted Washington came in after the second preseason game and played a 2 gap NT for the first time in his career without any offseason or training camp to learn the position. Adalius Thomas learned how to play ILB on the fly because they moved him inside during trainign camp when they decided he was more needed there than outside. Randy Moss missed the entire preseason and knew all his presnap adjustments and was in perfect timing with Brady with a minimum amount of reps together. Junior Seau retired on August 14 from football in 2006 and signed on with the Pats a few weeks later and was playing a significant role at the start of the 2006 season (playing on both passing and run downs) eventhough he never played in a 3-4 in his life. If you have played ten years in this league it isn't all that hard to pick up a new system especially since Ryan used similiar terminology. There are plenty of examples of players doing what Burgess is doing and picking up the system quickly to support my argument.

 

[Ring 6]

From Scout Inc:



Derrick Burgess Scouting - New England Patriots - ESPN

From Christopher Price:



It Is What It Is Deconstructing Derrick Burgess … again

The Pats have plugged in many veterans in this defense without a lot of time and asked them to play big roles in positions they have never played. Ted Washington came in after the second preseason game and played a 2 gap NT for the first time in his career without any offseason or training camp to learn the position. Adalius Thomas learned how to play ILB on the fly because they moved him inside during trainign camp when they decided he was more needed there than outside. Randy Moss missed the entire preseason and knew all his presnap adjustments and was in perfect timing with Brady with a minimum amount of reps together. Junior Seau retired on August 14 from football in 2006 and signed on with the Pats a few weeks later and was playing a significant role at the start of the 2006 season (playing on both passing and run downs) eventhough he never played in a 3-4 in his life. If you have played ten years in this league it isn't all that hard to pick up a new system especially since Ryan used similiar terminology. There are plenty of examples of players doing what Burgess is doing and picking up the system quickly to support my argument.

The unusual example is not proof you are correct, it is proof it could possibly happen.
It would be like me predicting a nohitter tonight by the Red Sox by saying Bucholtz and Lester have had them recently.
I don't understand why you feel the need to reach to come up with a comfort level that Derrick Burgess is more than he is. Lets add up your argument:
-At one point in his career he was coached by a coach who was with the Pats, and they used a little 3-4.
-Other players have changed positions
-Although there is no evidence he even practiced at the position, they probably just forgot to try that until practices were closed to the public.

I'm not saying there is zero chance that he could end up being an every down OLB. I'm saying there is simply no VIABLE evidence. That is the issue. Instead of using conjecture and loosely fitting 'proof' to show a possibility exists you are using it to confirm your prediction that it is certain to happen.

 

[Ring 6]

From Scout Inc:



Derrick Burgess Scouting - New England Patriots - ESPN

From Christopher Price:



It Is What It Is Deconstructing Derrick Burgess … again

The Pats have plugged in many veterans in this defense without a lot of time and asked them to play big roles in positions they have never played. Ted Washington came in after the second preseason game and played a 2 gap NT for the first time in his career without any offseason or training camp to learn the position. Adalius Thomas learned how to play ILB on the fly because they moved him inside during trainign camp when they decided he was more needed there than outside. Randy Moss missed the entire preseason and knew all his presnap adjustments and was in perfect timing with Brady with a minimum amount of reps together. Junior Seau retired on August 14 from football in 2006 and signed on with the Pats a few weeks later and was playing a significant role at the start of the 2006 season (playing on both passing and run downs) eventhough he never played in a 3-4 in his life. If you have played ten years in this league it isn't all that hard to pick up a new system especially since Ryan used similiar terminology. There are plenty of examples of players doing what Burgess is doing and picking up the system quickly to support my argument.

Those quotes dont do anything to make me feel better about his ability to defend the run as a 2gap 34 OLB. The first quotes tend to describe his strengths as the opposite of what he will do in our system, and the second are unqualified numbers. The fact that a high percentage of his tackles we for short or no gain doesn't tell the whole story. The # of tackles looks very low. It is very possible those were stops in the backfield playing a one gap technique, rushing the passer, ala Freeney and finding a RB along the way. I would venture Freeneys % of tackles for loss or no gain look similar to Burgess and clearly thats not a compliment about his run defense.

 

[Rob0729]

The unusual example is not proof you are correct, it is proof it could possibly happen.
It would be like me predicting a nohitter tonight by the Red Sox by saying Bucholtz and Lester have had them recently.
I don't understand why you feel the need to reach to come up with a comfort level that Derrick Burgess is more than he is. Lets add up your argument:
-At one point in his career he was coached by a coach who was with the Pats, and they used a little 3-4.
-Other players have changed positions
-Although there is no evidence he even practiced at the position, they probably just forgot to try that until practices were closed to the public.

I'm not saying there is zero chance that he could end up being an every down OLB. I'm saying there is simply no VIABLE evidence. That is the issue. Instead of using conjecture and loosely fitting 'proof' to show a possibility exists you are using it to confirm your prediction that it is certain to happen.

Who said I am making Burgess out to be more than who he is. If Belichick only thought Burgess was a situational pass rusher, he probably wouldn't have been pursuing since before the draft and gave up two picks for him. People said the same thing about Seau and he ended up becoming the fulltime starter.

Neither of us have any proof either way to prove our argument. All either of us have is some evidence either way to support our opinions. You have no proof and I have no proof. Even today, Reiss has a piece on Burgess where Burgess claims he isn't exactly sure how Belichick is going to use him this season. I am sure until he gets more acclimated to the defense (and even someone in a similiar defense needs to get acclimated especially when he has only been here for three weeks), Belichick is going to use him to do what he is good at and then expand his role.

 

[Rob0729]

Those quotes dont do anything to make me feel better about his ability to defend the run as a 2gap 34 OLB. The first quotes tend to describe his strengths as the opposite of what he will do in our system, and the second are unqualified numbers. The fact that a high percentage of his tackles we for short or no gain doesn't tell the whole story. The # of tackles looks very low. It is very possible those were stops in the backfield playing a one gap technique, rushing the passer, ala Freeney and finding a RB along the way. I would venture Freeneys % of tackles for loss or no gain look similar to Burgess and clearly thats not a compliment about his run defense.

Actually, based on the Scout Inc report, I think he may benefit from moving to OLB on running downs since it is his speed and moves that are his strength on run downs, not engaging tackles. As a 3-4 OLB, you engage the tackles less than you do as a 4-3 DE. Based on Scout Inc's report (which is very superficial), him being a 4-3 DE and not a 3-4 OLB may be the reason why he isn't considered a good run defender.

 

[Ring 6]

Who said I am making Burgess out to be more than who he is. If Belichick only thought Burgess was a situational pass rusher, he probably wouldn't have been pursuing since before the draft and gave up two picks for him. People said the same thing about Seau and he ended up becoming the fulltime starter.

Neither of us have any proof either way to prove our argument. All either of us have is some evidence either way to support our opinions. You have no proof and I have no proof. Even today, Reiss has a piece on Burgess where Burgess claims he isn't exactly sure how Belichick is going to use him this season. I am sure until he gets more acclimated to the defense (and even someone in a similiar defense needs to get acclimated especially when he has only been here for three weeks), Belichick is going to use him to do what he is good at and then expand his role.

Well that is part of the issue. BB needed pass rush help. For some reason you seem to think he wouldnt get it unless it came in a package that brought something else with it. I disagree.
Would a starting NT be worth the price? Was Ted Washington? Would a starting ILB? A nickel corner?
Burgess, as a sub package DE will play as much or more than all of those players.
I disagree neither of us have any evidence.
Mine is his career and what he has been doing in practice.