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On Flacco, I never put him there. Just asked.
I understand. I was just trying to explain my placement of him. If it seemed like anything else, I posted poorly and I apologize.
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CLICK HERE to Register for a free account and login for a smoother ad-free experience. It's easy, and only takes a few moments.On Flacco, I never put him there. Just asked.
On Brees, I certainly agree that Brees belongs up there right after Tommy, Peyton and Ben (would put him ahead of Ben except for that annoying matter of his two rings), but you make the point yourself that Giants fans would make in reply: great QB's don't have "December swoons." I think he belongs above Eli, but saying so in a NY paper today is another matter. That's all I was implying.
I agree re McNabb and said so several posts ago, but disagree re Rivers; no matter how much we might not like it, Eli delivered in 07/08 when it counted. Rivers has yet to do so.
So the Giants fans would argue that Brees isn't a great QB because he has December swoons like Eli? Eli in December last year had 2 TDs total in four games. He didn't throw for over 200 yards in a game during that stretch. His first and only playoff game last year he got 169 yards, 0 TDs, and 2 INTs. By comparison, Brees had 10 TDs and threw for over 350 yards twice in the month of December. He had a swoon by his comparisons, but his swoon would have major improvement for Eli on his season numbers. Championships really is only a fair comparisons when you compare two QBs of a similiar level or a multiple winner like Big Ben.
Brees' swoon was enough to knock him out of MVP contention, but was still better than most of the QBs in the league. Eli's swoon made him pretty mediocre.
As for Rivers, he is better than Eli by a wide margin. You put Rivers on that Giants Super Bowl team and they might have won by two TDs. Rivers hasn't delivered in part because he played without an ACL in the AFC Championships and last year because the Chargers' defense fell apart. People put far too much emphasis on championships. By that logic, Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Dan Marino.
As for your Dilfer zinger, give me a break. Dilfer, as I said to Deus, is the QED of mediocre QB's winning SB's. In addition, he had six seasons after winning that SB to prove it wasn't a fluke and, obviously, failed to do so. So, the comparison with Marino is rhetorical and gratuitous, given Dan's body of work over a long career.
Brady
Manning
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Brees
McNabb
Warner
Palmer
Personally, I don't think there's any real question that all 8 of those quarterbacks are better than Manning. That makes Manning #9 before you even get into debates. I'd personally put Hasselbeck there, too, but he was injured a lot of last season, so I could see where people would debate the issue. So, that puts Manning somewhere in the mix with:
Hasselbeck
Ryan
Cutler
Pennington
Schaub
Cassel
Rodgers
Romo
Ryan
which means that Manning could be reasonably be slotted anywhere from 9-19, depending upon how someone's internal debates break down.
Edwards
Clemens/Sanchez
Flacco
Quinn/Anderson
Collins/Young
Garrard
Orton
Russell/Garcia
Campbell
Rosenfels
Stafford
Delhomme
Bucs QB
Niners QB
Bulger
That would be the list to clearly put below Manning, IMO. Yes, Eli won a Super Bowl because fortune favored him, but we're talking about a career 76.1 passer rating and a 98/74 TD/INT ratio.
So the Giants fans would argue that Brees isn't a great QB because he has December swoons like Eli? Eli in December last year had 2 TDs total in four games. He didn't throw for over 200 yards in a game during that stretch. His first and only playoff game last year he got 169 yards, 0 TDs, and 2 INTs. By comparison, Brees had 10 TDs and threw for over 350 yards twice in the month of December. He had a swoon by his comparisons, but his swoon would have major improvement for Eli on his season numbers. Championships really is only a fair comparisons when you compare two QBs of a similiar level or a multiple winner like Big Ben.
Brees' swoon was enough to knock him out of MVP contention, but was still better than most of the QBs in the league. Eli's swoon made him pretty mediocre.
As for Rivers, he is better than Eli by a wide margin. You put Rivers on that Giants Super Bowl team and they might have won by two TDs. Rivers hasn't delivered in part because he played without an ACL in the AFC Championships and last year because the Chargers' defense fell apart. People put far too much emphasis on championships. By that logic, Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Dan Marino.
Did you read what I wrote? I accepted and agreed that Brees belongs ahead of Eli and agree with what you write. I wasn't defending the Giants' fans hypothetical view, only stating it. I was making the point that Giants fans would use his "swoon" to argue otherwise and that, therefore, Gary was going against the grain in New York to do what he did. That's all I said. Cheesh. Brees is a vastly superior QB to Eli Manning. There. Is that clear enough? That said, Brees still has to deliver the goods. I keep him among the elite on my list because I think he deserves to be there and a few bad weeks don't change that; however, any more late season "swoons" and I start to question that.
As for Rivers, I do just plain disagree. Your defense of Rivers reads, to me, like a series of excuses; QB's who need that many excuses made for them are not superior to QB's who did what Manning did that year until they prove otherwise either by a body of stats over time or by winning a championship, neither of which Rivers can show. Rivers' 3-3 record is just OK in the post season. Like it or not, Eli put together a terrific run at the end of the 07 season and into the playoffs. He got it done. Rivers, so far, hasn't. We're just not going to agree on that one.
As for your Dilfer zinger, give me a break. Dilfer, as I said to Deus, is the QED of mediocre QB's winning SB's. In addition, he had six seasons after winning that SB to prove it wasn't a fluke and, obviously, failed to do so. So, the comparison with Marino is rhetorical and gratuitous, given Dan's body of work over a long career.
Other than the Super Bowl run, Manning's been a below average QB for the vast majority of his career. Manning IS Dilfer, to date.
Rivers had his shot at the 2007 Patriots and lost, with better talent around him. I dont know how you can make a statement like you did.
In a 13 year career, Dilfer only took a team to the playoffs twice, threw more INT's than TD's and ended up with a Pass Rating just a little above room temperature, at 70.1. I can't believe that I've boxed myself into the corner of defending Eli (whom I don't even like), but in four seasons as a starter, Manning has taken his team to the Playoffs every year and won an SB. He's no Brady/Peyton/Ben but he's not Trent Dilfer either.
In a 13 year career, Dilfer only took a team to the playoffs twice, threw more INT's than TD's and ended up with a Pass Rating just a little above room temperature, at 70.1. I can't believe that I've boxed myself into the corner of defending Eli (whom I don't even like), but in four seasons as a starter, Manning has taken his team to the Playoffs every year and won an SB. He's no Brady/Peyton/Ben but he's not Trent Dilfer either.
In a 13 year career, Dilfer only took a team to the playoffs twice, threw more INT's than TD's and ended up with a Pass Rating just a little above room temperature, at 70.1. I can't believe that I've boxed myself into the corner of defending Eli (whom I don't even like), but in four seasons as a starter, Manning has taken his team to the Playoffs every year and won an SB. He's no Brady/Peyton/Ben but he's not Trent Dilfer either.
I agree. Eli (as much as it pains me to say it) blows Trent Dilfer out of the water. Hes 42-29 as a starter, 4 -straight 3k yd 20td seasons and a SB.
We'll see how well he does this year, but all in all he has had a pretty decent career so far.
Is he better than Rivers? Statistically speaking they are close. But IMO Rivers is a better QB - even though he doesnt have a SB, but he is 33-15 as a starter and playing hurt in the 07 playoffs impressed the hell out of me.
my .02$
I agree. Eli (as much as it pains me to say it) blows Trent Dilfer out of the water. Hes 42-29 as a starter, 4 -straight 3k yd 20td seasons and a SB.
We'll see how well he does this year, but all in all he has had a pretty decent career so far.
Is he better than Rivers? Statistically speaking they are close. But IMO Rivers is a better QB - even though he doesnt have a SB, but he is 33-15 as a starter and playing hurt in the 07 playoffs impressed the hell out of me.
my .02$
I agree. Eli (as much as it pains me to say it) blows Trent Dilfer out of the water. Hes 42-29 as a starter, 4 -straight 3k yd 20td seasons and a SB.
We'll see how well he does this year, but all in all he has had a pretty decent career so far.
Is he better than Rivers? Statistically speaking they are close. But IMO Rivers is a better QB - even though he doesnt have a SB, but he is 33-15 as a starter and playing hurt in the 07 playoffs impressed the hell out of me.
my .02$
And did you read my post? Only a moron fan would argue what you stated because Brees' swoon which brought him from an elite QB caliber to a top 5 QB caliber was better than Eli did at his best last year. So you are arguing that since Brees went from considerably better than Eli to just a decent amount better than Eli in December, that a Giants fan could argue that Eli was better. Sorry, I believe your point was wrong whether you agreed with the argument or not.
I disagree with your point about Rivers. Peyton Manning broke several single season records in 2004, but hadn't won a Super Bowl at that point. It didn't change the fact he wasn't one of the best of all time or better than many of the other top QBs who have won Super Bowls in the past, but clearly weren't better. I argue that talentwise Eli isn't close to Rivers. The Giants won the Super Bowl against the Patriots (in a season where Eli was mediocre for a large part of it) because the defense shutdown the highest scoring offense of all time, not because Eli played well (because he didn't since he should have been intercepted twice and probably sacked on that game winning drive). When one QB is clearly more talented than the other, one Super Bowl win doesn't then become the deciding factor for who is better.
As for the Dilfer reference, I was using a hyperbole to prove my point. If Dilfer was a fluke, how do we know that Eli isn't? Eli played like crap and the Giants were spanked last year in the playoffs. Since Eli came to the Giants, the Giants have gone to the playoffs in four seasons and been one and done in three of the four playoffs. Sounds kinda flukey to me. Let's see Eli get to the NFC Championships again before we say that he deserves any more credit than Dilfer for winning a Super Bowl. The team needed him to step up last year in the playoffs and he skunk up the joint.
Let's face it. The year that the Giants won the Super Bowl, if Rivers had his ACL they might have won the Super Bowl instead of the Giants. I have confidence that the Pats still would have won, but who knows. To say that Eli is better than Rivers just because the Giants defense shut down Brady and the offense and won one game vs. a competitor that the Chargers lost to with Rivers playing after he had his ACL removed is a little silly. If the Giants were consistently going deep into the playoffs under Eli, I could agree with you. But Eli is 0-3 in the playoffs if you take away the Super Bowl run.
Career numbers:
Manning: 42-29 (.592)
Rivers: 33-15 (.688)
Manning: 4.3 TD%
Rivers: 5.5
Manning: 3.2 INT%
Rivers: 2.5
Manning: 98/74 TD/INT ratio
Rivers: 78/36
Manning: 76.1 passer rating
Rivers: 92.9
It's not even close. Statistically speaking, Manning can't hold Rivers' jock.
Career numbers:
Manning: 42-29 (.592)
Rivers: 33-15 (.688)
Manning: 4.3 TD%
Rivers: 5.5
Manning: 3.2 INT%
Rivers: 2.5
Manning: 98/74 TD/INT ratio
Rivers: 78/36
Manning: 76.1 passer rating
Rivers: 92.9
It's not even close. Statistically speaking, Manning can't hold Rivers' jock.