Dukes and Baldinger discuss the Patriots weaknesses

[AzPatsFan]

Sey gets a bad rap for his injured seasons in recent years. In 08 he was more of a difference maker than many give him credit for.

Lets see what happens in the fall... I, for one, would not be surprised to see Sey - not Vince - in a NE uniform in Sept '10 (though I hope they can keep Wilfork...).

I htought it was a miscarraige that Seymour did not make the All Star teams last season. One of the reasosn was that he was not on the original list of probowl voting lists, and had to be written in.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Offseason spotlight: Do 2009 Patriots have any glaring weaknesses?

Dukes says Seymour is long in the tooth ... I agree he is not what he was as a dominating young player on the D-Line,but he is not 35 years old either

How can he be "long in the tooth" when he just turned 30?

 

[patfanken]

One thing that has been a constant in preseason analyses im reading was repeated by Baldinger, much to my continuing dismay, where he contended that the Pats lost their BEST pass rusher when we traded Mike Vrabel.

Did anyone one of these guys WATCH last season. Somehow I think we are going to be able to replace those FOUR sacks Mike racked up last season (ONE in the last 11 games)

 

[Deus Irae]

One thing that has been a constant in preseason analyses im reading was repeated by Baldinger, much to my continuing dismay, where he contended that the Pats lost their BEST pass rusher when we traded Mike Vrabel.

Did anyone one of these guys WATCH last season. Somehow I think we are going to be able to replace those FOUR sacks Mike racked up last season (ONE in the last 11 games)

One bad season when he was injured isn't really a reason to say that Vrabel wasn't the team's best pass rusher.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

One bad season when he was injured isn't really a reason to say that Vrabel wasn't the team's best pass rusher.

Yup, though we might reasonably lean toward the year early theory.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yup, though we might reasonably lean toward the year early theory.

That, combined with a bonus payment, certainly makes sense.

 

[patfanken]

From what I can infer, Mike was going to be a cap casualty at least. This trade was BB/Pioli (who has TONS of cap room) giving Mike a corporate thank you. Making sure he got he $1MM roster bonus, and his hefty salary. He also avoided the embarassment of being released.

Box, I think the year too early thought was right on the money. Besides weren't there reports a few years ago about the possibility of Vrabel retiring to go back and coach at OSU.

At any rate, no one is saying that Vrabel would have been a liability to the Pats on the playing field, but he would have been one on the cap. And as you know the first rule of capology, every dollar you give to one player there is one less dollar for everyone else.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

From what I can infer, Mike was going to be a cap casualty at least. This trade was BB/Pioli (who has TONS of cap room) giving Mike a corporate thank you. Making sure he got he $1MM roster bonus, and his hefty salary. He also avoided the embarassment of being released.

Box, I think the year too early thought was right on the money. Besides weren't there reports a few years ago about the possibility of Vrabel retiring to go back and coach at OSU.

At any rate, no one is saying that Vrabel would have been a liability to the Pats on the playing field, but he would have been one on the cap

Vrabes is apparently looking to coach when he hangs it up, but this move looks to be a classic Belichick effort that gets his golden boy paid, helps out a friend in a turn-around situation, clears cap space, and opens roster space for younger players to compete and rebuild for the future.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Vrabes is apparently looking to coach when he hangs it up, but this move looks to be a classic Belichick effort that gets his golden boy paid, helps out a friend in a turn-around situation, clears cap space, and opens roster space for younger players to compete and rebuild for the future.

Do you think if Denver jumped first that Belichick would have sent Vrabel and Cassel for the same trade value as he did with KC to the Broncos to help out McDaniels the same way?

I don't,His relationship with Pioli went higher than any ex-coach I think thus Pioli got a great deal and NE dropped a leader but more importantly he dropped age on his defense which was equally important.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I agree. It was a financial/respect decision. I don't necessarily think he did it as a solid for Pioli, but rather than insult him by cutting/forcing a renegotiation (in which he did a cap-friendly deal back in 05 I think) they traded him.

Sure his sack total was down significantly, but he still came up with a INT, 4 PDs and forced a fumble which is more than what Bru did in 08.

In the end, BB felt he would get the same production from Woods/Crable/TBC and potentially someone like Burgess for less dollars, and with him being 34 at the start of 09, it made sense to BB to move in a different direction.

My .02$

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

BB will risk leting a guy go a year too early rather than keeping him a year too many. Cap hit is another motivator. Glad to see him take care of Vrabes' financial future with that deal. Love to see Vrabes return in 3 years and do a 1 day sign & retire as a Patriot.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Do you think if Denver jumped first that Belichick would have sent Vrabel and Cassel for the same trade value as he did with KC to the Broncos to help out McDaniels the same way?

I don't,His relationship with Pioli went higher than any ex-coach I think thus Pioli got a great deal and NE dropped a leader but more importantly he dropped age on his defense which was equally important.

If the Broncos had been the only team ready to play at the whistle, sure BB would have gone to bat with them - as far as getting equivalent value, it's what the other team has to work with.

 

[ScottieC]

Offseason spotlight: Do 2009 Patriots have any glaring weaknesses?

Dukes says Seymour is long in the tooth ... I agree he is not what he was as a dominating young player on the D-Line,but he is not 35 years old either

That nuts, even John Gruden stated at the Combine this year that Seymour was THE prototypical 3-4 Lineman and is the benchmark if you are running a 3-4 as to what you should be looking for in a player.

 

[Ring 6]

One bad season when he was injured isn't really a reason to say that Vrabel wasn't the team's best pass rusher.

The operative word is LOST. To say we lost our best pass rusher means he would have been our best this year, or at least was our best last year.
He may have been the best pass rusher we had over the last 5-7 years, but thats not the implicaiton of 'they lost their best pass rusher'.

Vrabel has always been among my few favorite Pats. I hate that he is gone. But he is gone because he skill have eroded, not because we dispensed of him while he was still at his peak.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Ngata is a strange one for me... never can remember him in these debates.... just "seems" like a DT to me... which IS an unfair knock... since Seymour "seems' like a DT, too... I just happen to watch a lot more pats football than Ravens...

THAT being said... Ngata does move around an awful lot... IS he truly a DE?

Regardless, I agree that when he plays the edge, he is a force... so I see your point... just not sure if he would be classified as a true DE.

Also.... I think that Seymour is the best of them all.... so, to the original point... NO idea how anyone can knock us on our D line... again, I think it's the best in the league.

Ngata is a NT. The guy weighs 345 pounds.

As for the original link, when did 29 years old become "long in the tooth?" Whenever someone talks about Seymour as being old or on the decline, I instantly know that their 'analysis' is shallow, deeply flawed, and generally useless. Seymour was as dominant as he's ever been last year, and, at 29, there's no reason at all to think that he's slowing down.

 

[BradyFTW!]

One bad season when he was injured isn't really a reason to say that Vrabel wasn't the team's best pass rusher.

True, although Vrabel definitely wasn't the team's best pass rusher (albeit for other reasons). He was a credible threat from the strong side, which is all that you can realistically ask for and more, but over his 8 years here he averaged 6 sacks/year.

I'd say that he was definitely our best LB over the duration of his career with the Pats, but not the best pass-rusher.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Ngata is a NT. The guy weighs 345 pounds.

As for the original link, when did 29 years old become "long in the tooth?" Whenever someone talks about Seymour as being old or on the decline, I instantly know that their 'analysis' is shallow, deeply flawed, and generally useless. Seymour was as dominant as he's ever been last year, and, at 29, there's no reason at all to think that he's slowing down.

Ngata is an athletic 345 who also has the length to handle Tackles and collapse the pocket from 5-tech when Baltimore has Kelly Gregg to play the 0-tech. When both are healthy, Ngata can be more 3-tech as they go to a 4-3 and give King Ray the shade of their backsides to protect him from blockers.

 

[RayClay]

Seymour did indeed have a nice season in 08 with those 8 sacks, but you still can't compare that with the monster years when he was younger but then again you really can't expect to keep that pace forever.

Seymour was coming off major injuries to at least three limbs and had a great year. He's 29, I believe. He'll be better this year, he's in his prime, not long in the tooth.

Both writers say our weakness is pass rush. I'm not arguing. Linebacker in general is unproven if Bru is getting on IMO.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Most of Vrabel's sacks were from coverage.

Now that that Pats have improved the secondary, I don't see the pass rush as a weakness heading into 2009.

It's all about synergy.

The only real weakness I see is punt returner. Who will it be???