Nice discussion of the rookies from Scout.com (public article)

[Lloyd_Christmas]

Your argument is terrible. Everybody in defense of BB says the same thing. First, he coached the Giants. I'm not talking about the Giants, I'm talking about the Patriots. Also, was BB in charge of drafting guys like Harry Carson, Carl Banks and Lawrence Taylor? If he wasn't, it makes your argument even worse. Second, "But he's won 3 super bowls with older unheralded LB's". Thanks for the great insight. Since 2005, their LB's have been regressing and BB has drafted 2 LB's in the first 3 rounds since. Mayo is a good start but Crable is a question mark. Even any moron on the street can tell you that the LB's are what makes the 3-4 go. For a team that has had the least amount of holes on their roster since 2004, it should've have been a cake walk to replace their LB's.

You talk as if making sure our LB corps is tops is the #1 priority of the team....

It isn't!

BB has to field an entire team, included having depth as we are hit by injuries every year. He also is limited by the salary cap. The Steelers don't have the best QB in the league, nor do they have to pay for one. The Steelers don't have the WRs we have either. I am very confident that a Brady led Patriots team last year would have won the SB, not the Steelers.

 

[DaBruinz]

You're starting to confuse me. I'm going to make this simple for you. Because I think BB has not done a good job drafting LB/DB from 2001-2007, has caused them to eventually lose big games because of a lack of talent and depth at the position.

So, now you backtrack again. If you are getting confused, its because you can't follow your own posts.

Sorry dude, I told you it was just one example. Do you really expect me to go through every game and show you when exactly Hobbs has falls down? Healthy or not, Hobbs isn't a starting corner in the NFL. He gave up too many big plays and drew too many penalties at critical times. I'm glad he's gone.
You're right, Samuel f***** up too, I'm not letting him off the hook either. He let a fourth string WR beat him for a touchdown which was pathetic. Also, Sanders and Samuel just watched Tyree when in fact they could have easily helped Harrison break up "the catch".

Hobbs was called on more BS penalties than anyone I've ever seen in the league. Penalties that every other CB got away with.

Tyree wasn't in Sanders area of coverage.. So, yes, he "watched Tyree jump up and get it." Samuel, on the other hand, was the person in man coverage on that play.

BTW, Hobbs has been a starting CB in this league. You saying otherwise is just sheer dumbness.

Yes, you already said this. I know they gave up cushions but they were able to jam when it was called for. The new group of DB's consisting of Samuel, Hobbs, Gay and whoever else couldn't jam if their life depended on it.

I reiterated the point because they gave the cushion a lot more than you'd have everyone believe.

How am I wrong about Bradley? They had almost the entire third round to trade up for him but probably waited until it was too late. There were plenty of trade ups in that round. If the Pats wanted him that badly, they could've reached for him.

How were you wrong about Bradley? Gee. You had the year wrong that he was drafted. While you are correct that the Pats 3rd round pick was at the end of the 3rd round, you are incorrect in the assumption that they had the entire 3rd round to try and make a trade. They didn't. They began trying to move up with San Fran who had the 12th pick. Unfortunately, they weren't able to get a deal done because of the run on WRs and because they didn't have what others wanted for the pick.

Because I haven't criticized anything? You completely lost me there. I'm the one on a tantrum? I'm just having fun with this back and forth talk with you and whoever else wants to throw down about how the Pats have stud's at LB. I haven't called anybody on this message board names nor have I called anyone in the Pats front office names.

I love your lack of reading comprehension. No. You haven't criticized anything. What you did was make BS, unfounded remarks. That's not criticizing. Also, no one has said that the Pats have "studs" at LB. And, yes, you have said that BB basically sucks.

I think BB could do better, while you are satisfied with BB. Why don't we just leave at that?

I never said I was "satisfied with BB." However, unlike yourself, I understand that the draft doesn't happen in a vacuum and that there are a lot more factors that go into drafting players than just their physical attributes. I also understand that, when it comes to trading for a player, that two teams are required and both teams have to be satisfied with the trade or it doesn't go thrtough. And a lot of that depends on the perceived value as well as whether the team believes their person will still be on the board if they move back..

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

So, now you backtrack again. If you are getting confused, its because you can't follow your own posts.

I think I know my own argument. I'm not going to repeat myself again.

Hobbs was called on more BS penalties than anyone I've ever seen in the league. Penalties that every other CB got away with. BTW, Hobbs has been a starting CB in this league. You saying otherwise is just sheer dumbness.

You obviously didn't understand what I said about Hobbs. Yes, he's started for the Pats at CB since mid-late '05. What I meant by "he's not a starting CB in the NFL" was he's not good enough to be a starting CB in the NFL. That is just one of the reasons why the Pats shipped him off for nothing to the Eagles. I'm glad he's gone and you will see a big difference in the secondary this season.

Tyree wasn't in Sanders area of coverage.. So, yes, he "watched Tyree jump up and get it." Samuel, on the other hand, was the person in man coverage on that play.

For whatever reason, Samuel took the play off. Although it wasn't Sanders "area of coverage", he had enough time to go over there and help break up the pass. That play took so long that Sanders, Samuel and Harrison should have been there for the jump ball. You can take a look at the play if you want (4:51) NFL Game Center: Post Game - New York Giants at New England Patriots - 2007 Super Bowl but I couldn't understand what the hell Samuel was doing guarding the sideline with nobody there. I'm glad he's gone.

How were you wrong about Bradley? Gee. You had the year wrong that he was drafted. While you are correct that the Pats 3rd round pick was at the end of the 3rd round, you are incorrect in the assumption that they had the entire 3rd round to try and make a trade. They didn't. They began trying to move up with San Fran who had the 12th pick. Unfortunately, they weren't able to get a deal done because of the run on WRs and because they didn't have what others wanted for the pick.

I know he was drafted in 2007, I just misread your 2004-2006 rant and assumed you were including Bradley.

I love your lack of reading comprehension. No. You haven't criticized anything. What you did was make BS, unfounded remarks. That's not criticizing. Also, no one has said that the Pats have "studs" at LB. And, yes, you have said that BB basically sucks.

Me saying that BB's lack of improving an aging and slow LB group has caused the defense to lose games. If that is not criticizing, I don't know what is.

I never said I was "satisfied with BB." However, unlike yourself, I understand that the draft doesn't happen in a vacuum and that there are a lot more factors that go into drafting players than just their physical attributes. I also understand that, when it comes to trading for a player, that two teams are required and both teams have to be satisfied with the trade or it doesn't go thrtough. And a lot of that depends on the perceived value as well as whether the team believes their person will still be on the board if they move back..

Whether you think your right and I'm wrong, is completely pointless at this point. In 2009, the LB's and the rest of the defense will do the talking for us. As I have said in other threads, since the Pats look like they can't improve what they have at LB, I'm willing to give whoever starts a chance.

 

[captain stone]

Hey Bro & State: don't let the lemmings get you down. There are still some of us here who can see that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

 

[MVPatsfan13]

hahaha, somebody named captain stone throws out a Jack Herer reference...that stuff sure is tasty

 

[BradyFTW!]

You're starting to confuse me. I'm going to make this simple for you. Because I think BB has not done a good job drafting LB/DB from 2001-2007, has caused them to eventually lose big games because of a lack of talent and depth at the position.

What an ignorant and wrong point. So Asante Samuel, Eugene Wilson, Randall Gay, Ellis Hobbs, and Jerod Mayo were bad picks? Or did you conveniently stop at 2007 so that you could leave the DROY out of it?

Sorry dude, I told you it was just one example. Do you really expect me to go through every game and show you when exactly Hobbs has falls down? Healthy or not, Hobbs isn't a starting corner in the NFL. He gave up too many big plays and drew too many penalties at critical times. I'm glad he's gone.
You're right, Samuel f***** up too, I'm not letting him off the hook either. He let a fourth string WR beat him for a touchdown which was pathetic. Also, Sanders and Samuel just watched Tyree when in fact they could have easily helped Harrison break up "the catch".

Anecdotal evidence is crap, especially when it's coming from a memory that's as obviously spotty as yours is. If you're that inclined to base entire careers on one play, then Brady must suck too. He's made some really bad plays in his time.

Yes, you already said this. I know they gave up cushions but they were able to jam when it was called for. The new group of DB's consisting of Samuel, Hobbs, Gay and whoever else couldn't jam if their life depended on it.

Yeah, Samuel and Gay totally sucked. We only won a SB with them starting at CB.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I have an idea. Why don't the mods just give Bro, State, captain stone, and a few others their own forum where they can post all day about how Belichick isn't good enough, and the rest of us can more easily ignore the crap that they're posting.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I really can't believe this is still going on. Really? Wow. HBWU is really not giving in.lol

 

[DaBruinz]

Hey Bro & State: don't let the lemmings get you down. There are still some of us here who can see that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

I love how you call other people lemmings because, god forbid, we actually use our brain to think when we post.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Isn't Pierre Woods the guy who gave up the SB fumble recovery to a tiny RB? The guy has no heart. No eye of the tiger look in his eye for that to occur. Pathetic.

Well there it is. You base your entire perception of a player on one play. Then start two threads based on that shallow, incorrect, and pointless perception, and carry your borderline-obsessive fixation on the guy into every other thread you find your way over to. The act's wearing thin, and you've never had a leg to stand on. Grow up.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I have an idea. Why don't the mods just give Bro, State, captain stone, and a few others their own forum where they can post all day about how Belichick isn't good enough, and the rest of us can more easily ignore the crap that they're posting.

How many times do I come on here and b**** about stuff? How many times do I create headlines b****ing about the Pats? Not very many. I say the Pats LB's are weak and you get your panties in a bunch.

What an ignorant and wrong point. So Asante Samuel, Eugene Wilson, Randall Gay, Ellis Hobbs, and Jerod Mayo were bad picks? Or did you conveniently stop at 2007 so that you could leave the DROY out of it?

Obviously, Mayo was a great pick. I never said he was a bad pick. My problem and argument in the beginning was BB finally used high to mid round draft picks on LB's. Unfortunately McKenzie is out for season and Crable is a question mark. Before those picks, the highest LB BB drafted was in the 5th round. My grief was that BB has only taken 3 LB's in the first three rounds in his 9 years as head coach. For quite some time you hear from everybody and their mother that the Pats are weak at LB. Each and every season we sit here and think that the Pats are going to draft LB, but they don't. I feel that the lack of depth, pass rush and coverage ability at LB has killed the Pats the last couple of years.

Samuel was a great find in the fourth round. However, he's not worth the money now. Eugene was a bad pick. Sure, he had a great 2003 and 2004 season. However, he regressed every year after that couldn't stop getting injured. Randall Gay wasn't drafted and it showed. He got torched by a WR that just came back 4-5 weeks from a broken foot (T.O.). If he was as good as you think, the Pats would've kept him. Hobbs was average at best. However, considering he was a third round pick, he was good value.

Anecdotal evidence is crap, especially when it's coming from a memory that's as obviously spotty as yours is. If you're that inclined to base entire careers on one play, then Brady must suck too. He's made some really bad plays in his time.

Sorry guy, you didn't read it correctly. I said, Hobbs has fallen down many times and that was one example. Since Hobbs has been a starter, I've seen him falling down many times trying to guard WR's. Sorry I didn't record every single play he fell down and make it a top headline to prove you wrong.

Yeah, Samuel and Gay totally sucked. We only won a SB with them starting at CB.

It worked for one post season. It was a fluke. They have been 0-4 ever since. Scheme only takes you so far. Eventually, your going to have to get talent if you plan on ever winning a super bowl again. BB finally got the net drafting Merriweather and Mayo in 2007-2008.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Well there it is. You base your entire perception of a player on one play. Then start two threads based on that shallow, incorrect, and pointless perception, and carry your borderline-obsessive fixation on the guy into every other thread you find your way over to. The act's wearing thin, and you've never had a leg to stand on. Grow up.

State, you got served!

 

[Deus Irae]

Obviously, Mayo was a great pick. I never said he was a bad pick. My problem and argument in the beginning was BB finally used high to mid round draft picks on LB's. Unfortunately McKenzie is out for season and Crable is a question mark. Before those picks, the highest LB BB drafted was in the 5th round. My grief was that BB has only taken 3 LB's in the first three rounds in his 9 years as head coach. For quite some time you hear from everybody and their mother that the Pats are weak at LB. Each and every season we sit here and think that the Pats are going to draft LB, but they don't. I feel that the lack of depth, pass rush and coverage ability at LB has killed the Pats the last couple of years.

1.) Not "everybody and their mother" has been muttering the nonsense about the linebacking corps the way you have. Many of us understood what was going on and didn't feel the need to keep looking up to avoid chunks of falling sky.

2.) I don't know how many times this stuff has to be pointed out, but let's try it again:

• The Steelers only drafted about as many linebackers as the Patriots did through the decade
• Colleges don't run the 3-4, so it's very difficult to judge which players can adapt. that means....
• Using picks on 3-4 linebackers can easily lead to wasted picks
• The Patriots run a 2-gap, not a 1-gap, system. It makes a difference
• The Patriots' linebacking problem has been injuries, not lack of talent....
• Colvin's hip, Johnson's Concussions, Bruschi's stroke, A.D.'s multiple injuries
• Colvin alone missed more games than the entire Pittsburgh starting linebacking corps since his signing.
• James Harrison was an UDFA and was cut multiple times by the Steelers
• Larry Foote was a 4th round pick in 2002
• Farrior was drafted by the Jets, not the Steelers
• Clark Haggans was a 5th round pick in 2000
• Belichick has spoken of his belief that defense starts with the defensive line, hence 3 #1 picks for that line, and they've all lived up to 1st round pick status.

3.) As has also been pointed out time after time, the Patriots were second only to the Giants in sacks in 2007. The argument that the team didn't have a pass rush is just moronic.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I said the entire defense is the reason why the Pats haven't won a super bowl since '04.

You said that from 2001-2007, Belichick did a poor job drafting for the secondary and linebackers. I named off a bunch of counterpoints that proved you wrong.

When Thomas went out, Pierre Woods replaced him. Woods is slow.

Pierre Woods
Defensive End/Outside Linebacker
Senior
6’4, 249

Testing: Michigan Pro Day
4.7 Forty Yard Dash
4.19 Short Shuttle
6.87 Three Cone
32 ½ Vertical
9 ft 11 in. Broad Jump
15 Power Lifts

Workout Comments:

Pierre Woods Pro Day can be summed up in one word; outstanding. His short shuttle and three cone are optimum for the outside linebacker position. A 4.7 forty yard dash is a very solid time for him as well. At his size, these workout numbers have caught the eye of scouts around the league.

It must suck to be so consistently contradicted by simple, basic facts.

Before those picks, the highest LB BB drafted was in the 5th round. My grief was that BB has only taken 3 LB's in the first three rounds in his 9 years as head coach. For quite some time you hear from everybody and their mother that the Pats are weak at LB.

There's an incredibly simple explanation to this, but patchick's already summed it up a whole lot more succintly than I can over in one of the threads that State started, so I'll just give a brief summary: it takes time to learn the Pats' system. You don't draft guys looking to plug them in right away. Even the Steelers, who ask less of their OLBs in terms of versatility and learning, didn't get much out of Woodley until his second year. Belichick drafts ahead of his needs so that players can be coached up by the time they're needed: hence Crable, Redd, and Woods all being here now, with experience in the system, instead of relying on a rookie who wouldn't be able to help us this year anyways.

Each and every season we sit here and think that the Pats are going to draft LB, but they don't. I feel that the lack of depth, pass rush and coverage ability at LB has killed the Pats the last couple of years.

Weird, I could've sworn that the Patriots drafted 3 day-one LBs in the last 2 years, and got another UDFA who started for us last season.

Samuel was a great find in the fourth round. However, he's not worth the money now.

So it turns out that Belichick can draft secondary talent (you said that he'd done a poor job of it)

Eugene was a bad pick. Sure, he had a great 2003 and 2004 season. However, he regressed every year after that couldn't stop getting injured.

He regressed because he couldn't stop getting injured. So your point is that Belichick drafted badly because he failed to see the future and anticipate that in the extremely violent sport of professional football, this guy would be particularly unlucky? That's ******ed. He was a great pick: he started on 2 Super Bowl-winning defenses, was an excellent, versatile safety, and then he had trouble staying on the field.

Randall Gay wasn't drafted and it showed.

He started on a top-flight defense that won the ******* Super Bowl. What more can you want from an undrafted free agent?

He got torched by a WR that just came back 4-5 weeks from a broken foot (T.O.). If he was as good as you think, the Pats would've kept him.

Where did I say I thought he was awesome? He was a rookie UDFA who was able to step into a starting role on a Super Bowl team and not be a huge, glaring weakness. I'm fine with that.

All CBs get torched sometimes, and getting torched by TO, in particular, is nothing to be ashamed of. And the Pats didn't keep him for the same reason that they didn't keep Wilson: he kept getting hurt, and was offered more money than he was worth by someone else. Not rocket science.

Hobbs was average at best. However, considering he was a third round pick, he was good value.

Agreed- he's an average #2 CB. So Belichick can draft secondary talent (you said that he'd done a poor job of it).

Sorry guy, you didn't read it correctly. I said, Hobbs has fallen down many times and that was one example. Since Hobbs has been a starter, I've seen him falling down many times trying to guard WR's. Sorry I didn't record every single play he fell down and make it a top headline to prove you wrong.

Maybe you should try, since when you go back and watch the game film you'll realize how wrong you are.

It worked for one post season. It was a fluke. They have been 0-4 ever since. Scheme only takes you so far.

hahahaha that might be the stupidest argument I've ever heard on this board. Well, no, it's not, but it's pretty close. Because we haven't won a SB since 2004, it must mean that our secondary sucks.

Eventually, your going to have to get talent if you plan on ever winning a super bowl again. BB finally got the net drafting Merriweather and Mayo in 2007-2008.

Yeah, it's a good thing that Belichick finally figured out that you need good players to win the Super Bowl. Can't believe it took him so long.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

1.) Not "everybody and their mother" has been muttering the nonsense about the linebacking corps the way you have. Many of us understood what was going on and didn't feel the need to keep looking up to avoid chunks of falling sky.

There were a lot of Pats fans that thought they should draft a LB. In 2004, I remember a lot of people wanted Dansby. In 2005, I can't remember. In 2006, most people wanted Carpenter(there was a whole freakin' thread on that guy) and Manny Lawson. In 2007, most people wanted safety. Finally, in 2008, most people wanted LB. In addition, what I meant by "everybody and their mother", was "NFL experts" chiming in on the Pats biggest weakness.

2.) I don't know how many times this stuff has to be pointed out, but let's try it again:

I understand your point, no need to list them again. However, I obviously value LB more than BB. I felt since 2004, the Pats built themselves a stud D-line so why not try to improve their LB's. If BB could just addone stud OLB who can rush the passer, his defense would be deadly because his already has an all-pro D-line. I know they have Thomas, but they use him more in coverage because nobody can guard the TE. Hopefully, Mayo and Guyton improve their coverage skills to allow Adalius Thomas to wreck havoc on opposing QB's. In fact, Thomas has great speed off the edge and is an excellent bull rusher. As much as I'm not a fan of Woods yet, an improved secondary, coverage skills by Mayo and Guyton could allow the Pats to get more sacks than 2008.

3.) As has also been pointed out time after time, the Patriots were second only to the Giants in sacks in 2007. The argument that the team didn't have a pass rush is just moronic.

Yes, their pass rush was good because teams abandoned the run half way through the first quarter against the Pats. In 2008, their pass rush was pretty bad. Yes, I understand that Thomas was injured, but only Seymour was helping him out during that time. After Thomas was injured, the pass rush was non-existent. Maybe it will change as I posted above.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

You said that from 2001-2007, Belichick did a poor job drafting for the secondary and linebackers. I named off a bunch of counterpoints that proved you wrong.
It must suck to be so consistently contradicted by simple, basic facts.

That's funny you guys rag on State and Tripplecamp for bringing up what they read out of a magazine and now you present that to me. I know 40 times aren't everything, but a 4.7 isn't anything special. Nice try though.

Weird, I could've sworn that the Patriots drafted 3 day-one LBs in the last 2 years, and got another UDFA who started for us last season.

You obviously didn't catch what I wrote. Maybe if you read more carefully you will see I clearly said that. However, I left out Guyton because he wasn't drafted by the Pats.

So it turns out that Belichick can draft secondary talent (you said that he'd done a poor job of it)

They were good at the spot they were taken. Even though Samuel made plays, I don't like his style. The guys that they have now (Bodden and Springs) should be much better.

Maybe you should try, since when you go back and watch the game film you'll realize how wrong you are.

Not only do I not feel like it, but what's the point? Hobbs is gone. This year's secondary will be tougher and better.

hahahaha that might be the stupidest argument I've ever heard on this board. Well, no, it's not, but it's pretty close. Because we haven't won a SB since 2004, it must mean that our secondary sucks.

What would be a better argument? The team was victim to bad calls in Denver? The refs should have called a touch back on Champ Bailey? In Indy, It was too hot, players got sick, Hobbs was victim to another bad call, Ben Watson and Caldwell got mauled late in the 4th quarter. In 2007, the greatest offense off all time had one bad game, the refs should have called "in the grasp", BB should've challenged the fumble recovery, Samuel should have picked off that pass. Yeah, those sound a lot better.

 

[Deus Irae]

There were a lot of Pats fans that thought they should draft a LB. In 2004, I remember a lot of people wanted Dansby. In 2005, I can't remember. In 2006, most people wanted Carpenter(there was a whole freakin' thread on that guy) and Manny Lawson. In 2007, most people wanted safety. Finally, in 2008, most people wanted LB. In addition, what I meant by "everybody and their mother", was "NFL experts" chiming in on the Pats biggest weakness.

What you meant by "everybody and their mother" was you and the rest of the "Hindsight whining" gang. That's it.

I understand your point, no need to list them again. However, I obviously value LB more than BB. I felt since 2004, the Pats built themselves a stud D-line so why not try to improve their LB's. If BB could just addone stud OLB who can rush the passer, his defense would be deadly because his already has an all-pro D-line. I know they have Thomas, but they use him more in coverage because nobody can guard the TE. Hopefully, Mayo and Guyton improve their coverage skills to allow Adalius Thomas to wreck havoc on opposing QB's. In fact, Thomas has great speed off the edge and is an excellent bull rusher. As much as I'm not a fan of Woods yet, an improved secondary, coverage skills by Mayo and Guyton could allow the Pats to get more sacks than 2008.

If there's no need to list them and you "understand" my point, you shouldn't be whining about the linebackers and complaining about the Patriots strategy for the position. You're complaining about the winningest team of the decade. If you can't be happy with what this team has accomplished, you really need to either find another team to be a fan of so that it can remind you of what most teams are like, or you need to quit watching football.

Yes, their pass rush was good because teams abandoned the run half way through the first quarter against the Pats. In 2008, their pass rush was pretty bad. Yes, I understand that Thomas was injured, but only Seymour was helping him out during that time. After Thomas was injured, the pass rush was non-existent. Maybe it will change as I posted above.

Sacks ranking
2008: 14th
2007: 2nd
2006: 5th

What's next?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Sacks ranking
2008: 14th
2007: 2nd
2006: 5th

What's next?

In bandwagon fanland, merely above average = non-existent.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

What you meant by "everybody and their mother" was you and the rest of the "Hindsight whining" gang. That's it.

No, this was actually before the draft.

If there's no need to list them and you "understand" my point, you shouldn't be whining about the linebackers and complaining about the Patriots strategy for the position. You're complaining about the winningest team of the decade. If you can't be happy with what this team has accomplished, you really need to either find another team to be a fan of so that it can remind you of what most teams are like, or you need to quit watching football.

You can always change your strategy, can't you? Quit watching football? Not going to happen.

Sacks ranking
2008: 14th
2007: 2nd
2006: 5th

What's next?

I don't know what's next? Hopefully something better.

 

[BradyFTW!]

That's funny you guys rag on State and Tripplecamp for bringing up what they read out of a magazine and now you present that to me. I know 40 times aren't everything, but a 4.7 isn't anything special. Nice try though.

You said Woods is slow. a 4.7 is not slow for a SOLB. And nobody ragged on State for bringing magazine data into the argument. He brought school measurements, which were later proven to be hugely overinflated. Unless you're trying to say that Woods' pro day stats were overinflated/false, your 'point' is meaningless.

They were good at the spot they were taken. Even though Samuel made plays, I don't like his style. The guys that they have now (Bodden and Springs) should be much better.

Me either, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a very good CB.

What would be a better argument? The team was victim to bad calls in Denver? The refs should have called a touch back on Champ Bailey? In Indy, It was too hot, players got sick, Hobbs was victim to another bad call, Ben Watson and Caldwell got mauled late in the 4th quarter. In 2007, the greatest offense off all time had one bad game, the refs should have called "in the grasp", BB should've challenged the fumble recovery, Samuel should have picked off that pass. Yeah, those sound a lot better.

How does Champ Bailey's pick-six have anything to do with the secondary? How does the offense putting up 14 points in the 2007 SB have anything to do with the secondary? How does Woods' fumble recovery have anything to do with the secondary? How does the LBs being so depleted in the 2006 AFCCG that we had Eric Alexander on the field have anything to do with the secondary?

Sensing a common theme?