Sifting through the RB's

[JSn]

Ok, so I was thinking about the RB committee, which is pretty dang impressive on paper. Does anyone agree that the RB and TE groups could be larger this year at the expense of in-name-only DL/OL/LB's? Will the new ST rules mean speed and one-on-one blocking will have more value than space-eating?

In my opinion, the answer is yes. Not to say there isn't need of big guys for ST's, but I think things will be different and I bet the Pats will be ahead of the curve on this one, along with maybe Buffalo who always have good ST's.

So here's a roster layout from that perspective.

And let me say first that YES, I believe The Firm and Guyton are in the team's plans.
Green-Ellis making a name for himself - The Boston Globe

"He and [linebacker] Gary Guyton, obviously they should have been drafted," said Belichick. "We were hoping to get both of them, but if we really wanted him, we could have drafted him . . . but that is the scramble. [Green-Ellis] had two good years at Mississippi. We give our scouts and organization credit for having a group of guys there, and fortunately those two have come through for us."

With rushing touchdowns in four consecutive games, Green-Ellis is more than halfway to the franchise record of seven, set by Curtis Martin in 1996.

Ok, roster time: (props to MGTeich for the layout)

ST/S (1) Slater
ST/LB (1) Banta-Cain
ST/DB (1) Williams

OFFENSE (25)
QB (3) Brady, O'Connell, Hoyer
RB (5) Taylor, Faulk, Morris, Maroney, BJGE
WR (4) Moss, Welker, Galloway, Lewis
TE (4) Watson, Baker, Smith, DeVree
OT (4) Light, Kaczur, LeVoir, Vollmer
OG/C (5) Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Hochstein, Ohrenberger

DEFENSE (22)
DL (5) Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, Wright, Brace/Green/Smith
OLB (4) Thomas, Crable, Woods, Redd
ILB (4) Mayo, Bruschi, Guyton, Lenon
CB (5) Butler, Bodden, Springs, Wheatley, Wilhite
S (4) Meriweather, Sanders, Chung, McGowan

SPECIALISTS (3)
K (1) Gostkowski
P (1) Hanson
LS (1) Ingram

STARTING THE SEASON ON THE PUP LIST (1)
WR (1) Tate

STARTING THE SEASON ON IR (1)
LB (1) McKenzie

I paired the the DL needs to 5. I know some of you won't feel comfortable with that, but Consider that in a 4-3 set, we can technically run an LB (ie: Bru) on the line. Also, we will likely be in a lot of 2-DL formations (like against NO and other high-pass ratio teams).

Wright can fill in at Nose and I don't know if Brace is going to be ready.
I think Smith is on the bubble and Green could find himself as a starter or on another team by September. Tough to tell how his $$$ gets translated into value at this point.

Also, some of the guys I assigned as ST can possibly start at their positions, it was just a way to put very good depth at those spots on the 53.

Ok, lemme slip into something manure proof and let you have at it.

 

[ALP]

ill take first bite ....

u see DeVree making it over thomas, its very ineresting, wonderin what made u decide that...

u see us as keeping 5 Safeties, also something to note....i would maybe change that to 4 S, so that we can keep 6 DL, considering our contract situations with the DL after this season

u have slater in there, but not edelman, who has more flexibility....

i dont believe hochstien will make the team....his abilities seem to have diminishe the last two years, and i think BB will try to replace him with a younger guy (maybe the restler? i forgot his name)

and finally, u think they only brought in pass for camp fodder?

and now the final thing for real.....Sam Aiken, who seems to be the ST leader is not included in your roster....


overall, i think ur roster has some problems....

 

[BradyFTW!]

As predicted, my one significant issue is with a 5-man DL. It's definitely possible with the changes in ST rules, but I'd still be very surprised to see it. Other than that, I don't see BJGE making the team, but there's certainly plenty of reason to believe that he could.

 

[JSn]

ill take first bite ....

u see DeVree making it over thomas, its very ineresting, wonderin what made u decide that...

I think DeVree is making plays in OTA's.

u see us as keeping 5 Safeties, also something to note....i would maybe change that to 4 S, so that we can keep 6 DL, considering our contract situations with the DL after this season

I think Vince is about to get resolved, and I think he knows it. I know what you're saying, but I think excess safeties this year is more important.

u have slater in there, but not edelman, who has more flexibility....

Slater is in year two and is now focusing on safety (where he has already had reps). Edelman is in year one and learning a completely new position.

i dont believe hochstien will make the team....his abilities seem to have diminishe the last two years, and i think BB will try to replace him with a younger guy (maybe the restler? i forgot his name)

You might be right about Hochstein, but for now he's my most likely candidate for that last space.

and finally, u think they only brought in pass for camp fodder?

They brought in Pass as a favour to Pass, imo. If he supplants someone, that's cool, but I wouldn't count on it.

and now the final thing for real.....Sam Aiken, who seems to be the ST leader is not included in your roster....

Again, you might be right. I only have four WR's total, so I should add one more. But I think he gets beat by someone else.

overall, i think ur roster has some problems....

Yeah, well your MOM has problems.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Hard to believe 5 TE's make the roster and 5 RB's make the roster. I doubt Green-Ellis is eligible for the practice squad. But if he is, that is where he will likely end up. Finally, I see DeVree sticking to practice squad and Thomas will be on a short leash. In fact, they just traded for Alex Smith, who is young and can do the same things Thomas can do. At the most, the Pats keep 4 TE's and 3 at the least. Smith is a lock because they just traded for him, Baker should be a lock if he's good at blocking and Watson should be a lock because of his ability. In the end, Thomas and DeVree are the on the outside looking in.

 

[Liverpool_Patriot]

Hard to believe 5 TE's make the roster and 5 RB's make the roster. I doubt Green-Ellis is eligible for the practice squad. But if he is, that is where he will likely end up. Finally, I see DeVree sticking to practice squad and Thomas will be on a short leash. In fact, they just traded for Alex Smith, who is young and can do the same things Thomas can do. At the most, the Pats keep 4 TE's and 3 at the least. Smith is a lock because they just traded for him, Baker should be a lock if he's good at blocking and Watson should be a lock because of his ability. In the end, Thomas and DeVree are the on the outside looking in.

I think I read on Mike Reiss saying that Green-Ellis has played too much to be practice squad eligible but i'm not sure. I think he makes the team and Slater doesn't.

 

[ALP]

Hard to believe 5 TE's make the roster and 5 RB's make the roster. I doubt Green-Ellis is eligible for the practice squad. But if he is, that is where he will likely end up. Finally, I see DeVree sticking to practice squad and Thomas will be on a short leash. In fact, they just traded for Alex Smith, who is young and can do the same things Thomas can do. At the most, the Pats keep 4 TE's and 3 at the least. Smith is a lock because they just traded for him, Baker should be a lock if he's good at blocking and Watson should be a lock because of his ability. In the end, Thomas and DeVree are the on the outside looking in.

we were looking at the cap numbers yesterday, and if smith were to be cut, we would save about 1 mil, and have little to pay him

i think just cuz we traded for him doesnt mean that well actually keep him

 

[JSn]

Hard to believe 5 TE's make the roster and 5 RB's make the roster.

Well, here's four...

Working with the new wedge rules. The Patriots devoted practice time to their kickoff return unit. Some have asked the question how the NFL’s new wedge rules might affect special teams coaches – teams can no longer run wedges of three players or more -- and I took a closer look at that area in today’s session. I think the rule change will possibly lead teams to using some different personnel on the wedge – less linemen and more linebackers/tight ends. In no particular grouping, the Patriots had tight ends Benjamin Watson, Chris Baker, David Thomas and Alex Smith; defensive linemen Mike Wright and Le Kevin Smith; offensive linemen Stephen Neal, Russ Hochstein and Rich Orhnberger; and outside linebacker Vince Redd working in the wedge.

and finally, u think they only brought in pass for camp fodder?

Not even, apparently.

 

[MetalBleachers]

Kudos on the Pass release and on Vince. Still not sure if he'll sign, but it looks pretty good so far.

It will be interesting to see how many Pats that BB wants to keep on the PS get picked up off the wire. This team is loaded. :woohoo:

 

[mgteich]

As you might expect, I am uncomfortable having a roster of 5 DL's so that we can give DeVree a roster spot. Since we have roles for 5 DL's and five are usually active, I think it is most unlikely that we keep fewer than 6.

Brace has a roster spot. Belichick has never cut a 2nd round pick. He isn't
starting now. If Brace isn't ready, which is certainly possible, then we will need to keep seven DL's, with Brace as a developmental player. It is not ununusal to have a developmental player or two.

If you want Green-Ellis because of his special team value, then give him a ST spot. Personally, I wouldn't. .

At this point I prefer Aiken and Johnson to Slater and Hochstein, but I have no strong views either way.

BOTTOM LINE
Cutting Green and Smith to keep DeVree and Green-Ellis doesn't work for me.

Ok, so I was thinking about the RB committee, which is pretty dang impressive on paper. Does anyone agree that the RB and TE groups could be larger this year at the expense of in-name-only DL/OL/LB's? Will the new ST rules mean speed and one-on-one blocking will have more value than space-eating?

In my opinion, the answer is yes. Not to say there isn't need of big guys for ST's, but I think things will be different and I bet the Pats will be ahead of the curve on this one, along with maybe Buffalo who always have good ST's.

So here's a roster layout from that perspective.

And let me say first that YES, I believe The Firm and Guyton are in the team's plans.
Green-Ellis making a name for himself - The Boston Globe



Ok, roster time: (props to MGTeich for the layout)

ST/S (1) Slater
ST/LB (1) Banta-Cain
ST/DB (1) Williams

OFFENSE (25)
QB (3) Brady, O'Connell, Hoyer
RB (5) Taylor, Faulk, Morris, Maroney, BJGE
WR (4) Moss, Welker, Galloway, Lewis
TE (4) Watson, Baker, Smith, DeVree
OT (4) Light, Kaczur, LeVoir, Vollmer
OG/C (5) Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Hochstein, Ohrenberger

DEFENSE (22)
DL (5) Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, Wright, Brace/Green/Smith
OLB (4) Thomas, Crable, Woods, Redd
ILB (4) Mayo, Bruschi, Guyton, Lenon
CB (5) Butler, Bodden, Springs, Wheatley, Wilhite
S (4) Meriweather, Sanders, Chung, McGowan

SPECIALISTS (3)
K (1) Gostkowski
P (1) Hanson
LS (1) Ingram

STARTING THE SEASON ON THE PUP LIST (1)
WR (1) Tate

STARTING THE SEASON ON IR (1)
LB (1) McKenzie

I paired the the DL needs to 5. I know some of you won't feel comfortable with that, but Consider that in a 4-3 set, we can technically run an LB (ie: Bru) on the line. Also, we will likely be in a lot of 2-DL formations (like against NO and other high-pass ratio teams).

Wright can fill in at Nose and I don't know if Brace is going to be ready.
I think Smith is on the bubble and Green could find himself as a starter or on another team by September. Tough to tell how his $$$ gets translated into value at this point.

Also, some of the guys I assigned as ST can possibly start at their positions, it was just a way to put very good depth at those spots on the 53.

Ok, lemme slip into something manure proof and let you have at it.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Looking at just the RB arguments;

Keeping 5 RB's is probably a good idea. Unless you're confident that Taylor (age) can last the season, and Maroney (injury prone) can last the season, and Morris (injury prone) can last the season. Im thinking 5 sounds good. I'm confident in two RB's being healthy at the half way point. The law firm, and Faulk. Put me down as one of the people who wants 5 rb to start the season.

 

[Patjew]

Sign me up for 5 RBs and 3 or 4 (almost definitely 4) TEs.

 

[primetime]

Looking at just the RB arguments;

Keeping 5 RB's is probably a good idea. Unless you're confident that Taylor (age) can last the season, and Maroney (injury prone) can last the season, and Morris (injury prone) can last the season. Im thinking 5 sounds good. I'm confident in two RB's being healthy at the half way point. The law firm, and Faulk. Put me down as one of the people who wants 5 rb to start the season.

The thing about running back by committee is that even if one or two guys in your committee go down, you can find a more than adequate replacement on the free agent heap, even in the middle of the season. Case in point, BJGE last year, who to be honest never showed me he was more than a mediocre running back and easily replaceable. Other teams have done it - Cedric Benson was a midseason pickup for the Bengals last year and was decent enough.

On the other hand, if Seymour or Warren gets hurt, you have Mike Wright, but beyond that zero adequate replacements will be available in free agency in the middle of the season. You can't cut Jarvis Green or LeKevin Smith to keep a 4th TE or a 5th RB; position scarcity isn't just a buzzword for draft strategy, people.

 

[letekro]

Ok, so I was thinking about the RB committee, which is pretty dang impressive on paper. Does anyone agree that the RB and TE groups could be larger this year at the expense of in-name-only DL/OL/LB's? Will the new ST rules mean speed and one-on-one blocking will have more value than space-eating?

In my opinion, the answer is yes. Not to say there isn't need of big guys for ST's, but I think things will be different and I bet the Pats will be ahead of the curve on this one, along with maybe Buffalo who always have good ST's.

So here's a roster layout from that perspective.

And let me say first that YES, I believe The Firm and Guyton are in the team's plans.
Green-Ellis making a name for himself - The Boston Globe



Ok, roster time: (props to MGTeich for the layout)

ST/S (1) Slater
ST/LB (1) Banta-Cain
ST/DB (1) Williams

OFFENSE (25)
QB (3) Brady, O'Connell, Hoyer
RB (5) Taylor, Faulk, Morris, Maroney, BJGE
WR (4) Moss, Welker, Galloway, Lewis
TE (4) Watson, Baker, Smith, DeVree
OT (4) Light, Kaczur, LeVoir, Vollmer
OG/C (5) Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Hochstein, Ohrenberger

DEFENSE (22)
DL (5) Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, Wright, Brace/Green/Smith
OLB (4) Thomas, Crable, Woods, Redd
ILB (4) Mayo, Bruschi, Guyton, Lenon
CB (5) Butler, Bodden, Springs, Wheatley, Wilhite
S (4) Meriweather, Sanders, Chung, McGowan

SPECIALISTS (3)
K (1) Gostkowski
P (1) Hanson
LS (1) Ingram

STARTING THE SEASON ON THE PUP LIST (1)
WR (1) Tate

STARTING THE SEASON ON IR (1)
LB (1) McKenzie

I paired the the DL needs to 5. I know some of you won't feel comfortable with that, but Consider that in a 4-3 set, we can technically run an LB (ie: Bru) on the line. Also, we will likely be in a lot of 2-DL formations (like against NO and other high-pass ratio teams).

Wright can fill in at Nose and I don't know if Brace is going to be ready.
I think Smith is on the bubble and Green could find himself as a starter or on another team by September. Tough to tell how his $$$ gets translated into value at this point.

Also, some of the guys I assigned as ST can possibly start at their positions, it was just a way to put very good depth at those spots on the 53.

Ok, lemme slip into something manure proof and let you have at it.

I would subtract the following:

Devree, Redd, Hoyer

I would add the following:

Aiken, Green, Smith (i.e., 7 DLs).

 

[BradyManny]

BOTTOM LINE
Cutting Green and Smith to keep DeVree and Green-Ellis doesn't work for me.

Agreed completely.

Unless BJGE has some unknown ST talent we aren't aware of, I don't see how he can make this team (barring injury). He's a decent 3rd string player, but what's his value to us? We have 4 quality NFL caliber players at running back, BJGE does not project as a starter, we don't need him as depth at the position, and he doesn't offer a skillset different to any of the players on the roster. He is a longshot to make the roster, again, unless he's valuable to the ST units.

 

[MetalBleachers]

Agreed completely.

Unless BJGE has some unknown ST talent we aren't aware of, I don't see how he can make this team (barring injury). He's a decent 3rd string player, but what's his value to us? We have 4 quality NFL caliber players at running back, BJGE does not project as a starter, we don't need him as depth at the position, and he doesn't offer a skillset different to any of the players on the roster. He is a longshot to make the roster, again, unless he's valuable to the ST units.

That's going to be the call - who fits on STs? I think Maroney makes a comeback this year. Hard to cut HoF player like Taylor, backup stud like Morris or Pats' HoFer like Faulk. BJGE stays only as ST guy.

If they keep 4 TE's, maybe DeVree stays over Thomas? I don't think either one has conquered the world as a blocker, but Thomas' training room record doesn't exactly bode well.

Of course, some of this will be decided after preseason games due to injuries. It stinks, but at least the Pats have a good problem with plenty of players to choose from.

 

[JSn]

That's going to be the call - who fits on STs? I think Maroney makes a comeback this year. Hard to cut HoF player like Taylor, backup stud like Morris or Pats' HoFer like Faulk. BJGE stays only as ST guy.

If they keep 4 TE's, maybe DeVree stays over Thomas? I don't think either one has conquered the world as a blocker, but Thomas' training room record doesn't exactly bode well.

Of course, some of this will be decided after preseason games due to injuries. It stinks, but at least the Pats have a good problem with plenty of players to choose from.

It's very possible that one of the TE's fits an H-Back role and we end up with 4 TE's.

As for RB's, I think some of you are undervaluing Green-Ellis, personally. Is he lowest on the totem pole? Yeah, he is. But he also can't go on the P-Squad. I think he's a good RB (he did well for us, anyway) and it would be a shame to cut him and have him do really well elsewhere.

I get the point about 5 DL's, it make sense to keep that number higher.
Jarvis Green just doesn't seem like good value vs. cost.

 

[MetalBleachers]

FWIW, Alex Smith has been spotted taking on H-back duties.

 

[Synovia]

As for RB's, I think some of you are undervaluing Green-Ellis, personally. Is he lowest on the totem pole? Yeah, he is. But he also can't go on the P-Squad. I think he's a good RB (he did well for us, anyway) and it would be a shame to cut him and have him do really well elsewhere.

I think Green Ellis is completely fungible. Hes exactly the sort of guy who is freely available during the season. It was nice that he stepped in last year and was not-terrible, but thats about the best that could be said about him.


And no, he didn't do well with us. He had 3.7 ypc behind a great offensive line, and hasn't shown any real ability to catch or block.

 

[patchick]

As for RB's, I think some of you are undervaluing Green-Ellis, personally. Is he lowest on the totem pole? Yeah, he is. But he also can't go on the P-Squad. I think he's a good RB (he did well for us, anyway) and it would be a shame to cut him and have him do really well elsewhere.

To me it's just a numbers game. The Patriots roster is better off giving that roster space to a more strategic position. If Green-Ellis does well elsewhere, well good for him. That doesn't make it a mistake to keep, say, a promising developmental OL or DL instead.

Does anybody remember when we signed Lamont Jordan last year, there were dozens and dozens of posts debating whether Jordan or Morris would be the final cut, or whether the team would break with precedent and go with 5 RBs -- including 250-lb. FB Heath Evans? I'd be shocked if they kept 5 pure RBs. (And at 215 lbs. BJGE is definitely no fullback.)