Did Nick Saban Mislead Belichick with LSU Players?

[State]

Bill has said Nick Saban teaches him more than he teaches Saban. I don't know if they still do it, but they used to get together every year. Saban is part of the Belichick coaching tree, having been a wunderkind defensive coordinator with Belichick in Cleveland.

His input formerly used to be extremely valuable to Belichick. Bill has said so himself.

Bill Belichick took a second-rounder in 2004 on Marquise Hill, an inexperienced one-year starter considered a project with high-ceiling potential, and an early fourth-rounder in 2002 for Rohan Davey, who, although a star at the college level, many questioned his ability to play as well at the next level. Both, with the benefit of hindsight, can be considered questionable picks. Hill was obviously a big overreach. And despite Davey's poor Wonderlic score, we took him based on Saban's touting his "leadership."

Both deals were sealed by the glowing endorsements of their college coach, Nick Saban, then at LSU.

I think Saban intentionally mislead Belichick by touting players in a way that would help him recruit future players out of h.s. who had an eye on the NFL. He has that incentive.

Saban is a great recruiter. In the book _Blindside_ by Michael Lewis about Michael Oher, Saban wows the women of Oher's rich, adoptive family by talking about the treatment of the blinds on the windows or some such crap.

Hill, requiescat in pacem, never, ever came close to the perceptions many of us had about his talent; and Davey obviously didn't have the intellectual mojo to thrive as an NFL QB.

I think Saban stiffed Belichick. I hope our coach has learned to take what the Crimson Tide coach has to say "cum grano salis."

It helps with recruiting to tell prominent high school players, "Hey, I was able to push these guys up the draft board due to my connections. I can do the same for you."

But we're left holding the bag. Saban is a snake, coach. Have you learned your lesson?

 

[ivanfears]

Bill has said Nick Saban teaches him more than he teaches Saban. I don't know if they still do it, but they used to get together every year. Saban is part of the Belichick coaching tree, having been a wunderkind defensive coordinator with Belichick in Cleveland.

His input formerly used to be extremely valuable to Belichick. Bill has said so himself.

Bill Belichick took a second-rounder in 2004 on Marquise Hill, an inexperienced one-year starter considered a project with high-ceiling potential, and an early fourth-rounder in 2002 for Rohan Davey, who, although a star at the college level, many questioned his ability to play as well at the next level. Both, with the benefit of hindsight, can be considered questionable picks. Hill was obviously a big overreach. And despite Davey's poor Wonderlic score, we took him based on Saban's touting his "leadership."

Both deals were sealed by the glowing endorsements of their college coach, Nick Saban, then at LSU.

I think Saban intentionally mislead Belichick by touting players in a way that would help him recruit future players out of h.s. who had an eye on the NFL. He has that incentive.

Saban is a great recruiter. In the book _Blindside_ by Michael Lewis about Michael Oher, Saban wows the women of Oher's rich, adoptive family by talking about the treatment of the blinds on the windows or some such crap.

Hill, requiescat in pacem, never, ever came close to the perceptions many of us had about his talent; and Davey obviously didn't have the intellectual mojo to thrive as an NFL QB.

I think Saban stiffed Belichick. I hope our coach has learned to take what the Crimson Tide coach has to say "cum grano salis."

It helps with recruiting to tell prominent high school players, "Hey, I was able to push these guys up the draft board due to my connections. I can do the same for you."

But we're left holding the bag. Saban is a snake, coach. Have you learned your lesson?

jarvis green and randall gay turned out pretty good so did josh mcdaniels who saban reccomended

 

[Bring Back Antowain!]

I think you're completely off base here.

Just because Chad Jackson and Jeremy Mincey didn't work out, should we say that Urban Meyer has been trying to mislead Belichick?

No.

Marquise Hill and Rohan Davey just didn't work out. Just like plenty of other players that have simply not panned out. Davey was even a second string QB on a Super Bowl team and Hill unfortunately passed away before we could see him realize his full potential.

 

[Synovia]

Bill Belichick took a second-rounder in 2004 on Marquise Hill, an inexperienced one-year starter considered a project with high-ceiling potential, and an early fourth-rounder in 2002 for Rohan Davey, who, although a star at the college level, many questioned his ability to play as well at the next level. Both, with the benefit of hindsight, can be considered questionable picks. Hill was obviously a big overreach. And despite Davey's poor Wonderlic score, we took him based on Saban's touting his "leadership."

High upside players with limited starting time are risky. Marquise Hill not being any good was about a 75% probability.


Rohan Davey was a QB selected in the 4th round. The QBs picked ahead of him were: David Carr, Joey Harrington , Patrick Ramsey, Josh McCown, and David Garrard. His career was pretty typical for a fourth round pick: Out of the league after his rookie contract

 

[State]

jarvis green and randall gay turned out pretty good so did josh mcdaniels who saban reccomended

Nope. Randall Gay was undrafted. And Jarvis was at LSU before Saban got there, and performed at a high level for a long time, recording sacks as a freshman.

As a Michigan State fan--more so than a Pats fan--McDaniels was a graduate assistant for Saban at MSU, like the guy who left us for the Jets, Brian Daboll. I know whereof I speak, if you only knew what a fan I am of that football team. I've suffered longer with them than the Patriots, going back to 1977 for the Patriots and 1978 for the Spartans.

The two were graduate assistants for Saban during the late 1990s. I remember seeing them. They both lasted a year after Saban perfidiously left for LSU in 1999 before our bowl game with Florida on New Year's Day.

So I wouldn't read too much in that. I was talking players, not young coaches.

I still think Saban screwed us over. No one has said anything to contradict that.

 

[State]

I think you're completely off base here.

Just because Chad Jackson and Jeremy Mincey didn't work out, should we say that Urban Meyer has been trying to mislead Belichick?

No.

Marquise Hill and Rohan Davey just didn't work out. Just like plenty of other players that have simply not panned out. Davey was even a second string QB on a Super Bowl team and Hill unfortunately passed away before we could see him realize his full potential.

Chad Jackson ran a sub 4.4 forty that opened up a lot of eyes. That got people's attention. And for a year he had excellent production at the SEC conference.

Hill had two full years to develop. Knowing what I do, his techniques were so bad for so long, it wasn't ever going to happen. But I don't know--no one will.

 

[patchick]

Nope. Randall Gay was undrafted. And Jarvis was at LSU before Saban got there, and performed at a high level for a long time, recording sacks as a freshman.

Gay was totally off the radar because he didn't start his final year. But Belichick gave him a shot on Saban's recommendation. And Green was in the same 2002 class as Davey, how can Davey count as a Saban recommendation and Green not?

Those two are clear counterexamples. You can still make an argument that the overall yield from LSU players was poor, but you can't just erase any data point that doesn't fit your hypothesis.

 

[JoeB]

Randall Gay started in one of the superbowl wins as well opposite asante samuel... I think it may of even been both of their rookie years.

 

[State]

Think of it this way: Randall Gay couldn't start at cornerback in college but could in the pros. How often does that happen?

I would guess Saban considered him for special teams and nickel, not a starting CB in the NFL.

Gay's narrative is truly so exceptional as to be remarkable.

It is true he was off the radar screen playing only in obvious passing situations for LSU in 2003. I don't think he should be used to explain anything, except the universe can sometimes be unexplainable.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

[patchick]

Think of it this way: Randall Gay couldn't start at cornerback in college but could in the pros. How often does that happen?

Excellent point. So that makes Gay the #1 best possible example of a player selection where BB relied primarily on the recommendation of his buddy Saban rather than classic scouting, right?

Compare to a guy like Marquise Hill, a multi-year starter and ultra-rare physical specimen who was projected by many as a late-first to mid-second guy...
Draft King - 2004 NFL Mock Draft
2004 NFL Draft Prospects - Marquise Hill
Marquise Hill*|*LSU,*DE*:*2004 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

...and who was widely praised as a good fit and value when the Pats took him at the end of the 2nd:
Ask The Commish.com - 2004 NFL Draft Grades
Kiper gave A's to the Lions, Vikings, Bears and Falcons - NFL - ESPN
WalterFootball.com: 2004 NFL Draft Grades and Re-Grades - AFC Draft Grades

So really, you can't call Hill a real "Saban suggestion," he was just a logical value pick. And come to think of it, just about everything I just said about Hill could be said about Davey, too. Whereas Green was clearly undersized for the Pats defense so presumably his experience with Saban counted more, eh?

 

[State]

Good point. I like the about.com football site that called him "a little raw."

2004 NFL Draft Prospects - Marquise Hill

Turned out after three years of lack of progress he was more than that.

He played on such a good defense, the NCAA champions, that he could, just by his brute physicality, overwhelm the guy headed up against him.

But when he couldn't get away with doing that in the NFL, where technique is important, such as keeping his pads low--that was the concern by people like Nick Cafardo against Seymour, he being so tall, too--he never developed into the player we all had high hopes for.

RIP, Marquise.