Defense wins championships...well Pass Rush does

[RayClay]

Because he obviously has confidence in the kids. Why did Pittsburgh volunteer to put themselves in that position in 2007?

The Steelers drafted LB with their first and second pick in 2007. They had been acquiring linebackers in the top of the draft and top FAs like Farrior for years.

They are so deep that their 2007 pick, number 15 overall, had the luxury of playing behind Foote for two solid years. Harrison took six years to break out.

There is no comparison to Pittsburgh in the way we stock linebackers, please stop.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Steelers drafted LB with their first and second pick in 2007. They had been acquiring linebackers in the top of the draft and top FAs like Farrior for years.

They are so deep that their 2007 pick, number 15 overall, had the luxury of playing behind Foote for two solid years. Harrison took six years to break out.

There is no comparison to Pittsburgh in the way we stock linebackers, please stop.

Sometimes people try to out think the room. You're doing that on this issue, as is MgTeich. Prior to 2007, the Steelers had take an linebacker in the 5th round in 2005, the 2nd round in 2003 and the 4th round in 2002. That's it. It's not exactly an amazing sign of devotion.

 

[patsfan-1982]

#1 we tried to sign jason taylor he did not want to play for us


#2 we dont have the cap space to get peppers


#3 there is no one out there in FA right now better then who we have


#4 there is no guarantee that you will hit gold on a first round LB we got lucky with mayo look at the 2 LB that were drafted befor him

Keith Rivers drafted #9 by the bengals 37 tackles 1 INT


Vernon Gholston drafted #6 by the jets 13 tackles 0 sack's at this point he's no better then shawn crable who has not played a game and we got in the 3rd round

my point is that i think we can get by with 2 all pro LB mayo and AD and some fill in's who know's crable and guyton may turn out to be big time play maker's

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

They all point to Pittsburgh as if they never have any question marks at LB, yet they did basically the same thing a couple of years ago (ditching Porter and going with the 'no-name' young guy named Woodley) that a lot of these people are killing the Pats for (ditching Vrabel and going with whoever comes out on top).

Sorry to nip pick, but Porter was replaced by James Harrison (who was a nobody). Woodley replaced Clark Haggans in 2008. But yes, I get your point.

I'm on the Crable bandwagon and really rooting for him to have an outstanding camp. He has great athleticism for his size and showed great promise in last years preseason.

 

[mgteich]

It is not a matter of out thinking the room.

Belichick inherited Bruschi, Ted Johnson, McGinist and Slade
In 2001, we had a need at LB. We brought in Phifer, Vrabel and Cox.
In 2003, we had a need at LB. We brought in Colvin.
IN 2005, we had a need at LB. We brought in Beisel and Chad Brown.
In 2006, we had a need at LB. we brought in Seau.
In 2007, we had a need at LB. We brought in Thomas.
In 2008, we had a need at LB. We drafted Mayo and brought in Seau & Colvin.
In 2009, we had a need at LB. We brought in Banta-Cain.

The patriots have not developed a LB this decade.

Perhaps Woods, Guyton, Redd, and Craig will be the exceptions.

Perhaps Crable, like Mayo, is a top talent that need little development.

If all goes according to plan, Crable will start this year.

Sometimes people try to out think the room. You're doing that on this issue, as is MgTeich. Prior to 2007, the Steelers had take an linebacker in the 5th round in 2005, the 2nd round in 2003 and the 4th round in 2002. That's it. It's not exactly an amazing sign of devotion.

 

[Deus Irae]

It is not a matter of out thinking the room.

Belichick inherited Bruschi, Ted Johnson, McGinist and Slade
In 2001, we had a need at LB. We brought in Phifer, Vrabel and Cox.
In 2003, we had a need at LB. We brought in Colvin.
IN 2005, we had a need at LB. We brought in Beisel and Chad Brown.
In 2006, we had a need at LB. we brought in Seau.
In 2007, we had a need at LB. We brought in Thomas.
In 2008, we had a need at LB. We drafted Mayo and brought in Seau & Colvin.
In 2009, we had a need at LB. We brought in Banta-Cain.

The patriots have not developed a LB this decade.

Perhaps Woods, Guyton, Redd, and Craig will be the exceptions.

Perhaps Crable, like Mayo, is a top talent that need little development.

If all goes according to plan, Crable will start this year.

You have been trying to out think the room. First of all, they just brought back a linebacker they developed. That would be TBC. Beyond that, they've clearly been trying to develop P.W.. Second, it's been clear from day 1 of this regime that BB wanted to use smart veterans to restock the linebackers. This is not surprising, since most college teams don't play the sort of defense that lends itself to having ready made 3-4 NFL linebackers. As for Crable, I have no idea where you found this "plan", but I'm not counting on any such thing.

The problem, if you wish to call it that, with the linebacking corps has been bad luck. Johnson retired at the last minute: nothing wrong with his retiring, but the timing set the team back. Colvin was signed and almost immediately suffered an injury that made him a shell of his former self. Bruschi had a stroke, for crying out loud. Thomas has been injured both seasons he's been in New England. Also, just as teams miss on draft picks, even the Steelers , the Patriots haven't been perfect with linebacker pickups.

I don't know when people around here began to think that anything less than absolute perfection was a horrible thing that must be railed about, but I hope it stops soon. In that respect, it's almost too bad that the team didn't absolutely tank after Brady got hurt. Maybe then, people here would remember that 16-0 is not the norm for any team, even the Patriots, and that no team has 25 current Pro Bowlers on its roster.

 

[mgteich]

It is not bad luck if we count on three undrafted free agents and they don't step up. It wouldn't be bad luck if Bruschi just doesn't have much left in the tank. A team prepares for such contingencies. And no, a team doesn't need to have 25 pro-bowlers. However, we recently had five top LB's and built our defense around them. Change is fine, but then the secondary will need to pick up the slack.

Tully wasn't good enough to start when he was here. I hope that he developed some while at SF. In any case, I think that he was a good addition.

As I have indicated, a healthy Thomas is the key at OLB. I am fine with the committee on the other side.
================================================================
I am much more concerned about our situation inside. While everyone here was screaming for an OLB, I was one of those screaming for an ILB. As Reiss indicates, the situation is a concern. I wanted to draft Laurinitis. I want us to sign Harris. As Reiss points out, there are still many ways to address this need, including trades. But make no mistake, we have a considerable need at ILB.
===================================================================

You have been trying to out think the room. First of all, they just brought back a linebacker they developed. That would be TBC. Beyond that, they've clearly been trying to develop P.W.. Second, it's been clear from day 1 of this regime that BB wanted to use smart veterans to restock the linebackers. This is not surprising, since most college teams don't play the sort of defense that lends itself to having ready made 3-4 NFL linebackers. As for Crable, I have no idea where you found this "plan", but I'm not counting on any such thing.

The problem, if you wish to call it that, with the linebacking corps has been bad luck. Johnson retired at the last minute: nothing wrong with his retiring, but the timing set the team back. Colvin was signed and almost immediately suffered an injury that made him a shell of his former self. Bruschi had a stroke, for crying out loud. Thomas has been injured both seasons he's been in New England. Also, just as teams miss on draft picks, even the Steelers , the Patriots haven't been perfect with linebacker pickups.

I don't know when people around here began to think that anything less than absolute perfection was a horrible thing that must be railed about, but I hope it stops soon. In that respect, it's almost too bad that the team didn't absolutely tank after Brady got hurt. Maybe then, people here would remember that 16-0 is not the norm for any team, even the Patriots, and that no team has 25 current Pro Bowlers on its roster.

 

[RayClay]

Sometimes people try to out think the room. You're doing that on this issue, as is MgTeich. Prior to 2007, the Steelers had take an linebacker in the 5th round in 2005, the 2nd round in 2003 and the 4th round in 2002. That's it. It's not exactly an amazing sign of devotion.

Well, if the room thinks this is the same, maybe it's the rooms fault.

Belichick era drafts vs. Pitt through 2008

1.2..2..2..|3|...4....|.....5.....5.....66......

1.............|3|.........|.....5............666777





plus 1st round, #8 overall Farrior (FA) pitt

Plus 3rd Vrabel 4th Colvin 6th Thomas (just for the record). Pat

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, if the room thinks this is the same, maybe it's the rooms fault.

Belichick era drafts vs. Pitt

1.2..2..2..|3|...4....|.....5.....5.....66......

1.............|3|.........|.....5............666777





plus 1st round, #8 overall Farrior (FA) pitt

Plus 3rd Vrabel 4th Colvin 6th Thomas (just for the record). Pat

Ray, you made an argument about the way the Steelers were getting their linebackers. It was a bad argument, and it was flat out wrong. Just admit it and move on.

 

[mayoclinic]

It is not a matter of out thinking the room.

Belichick inherited Bruschi, Ted Johnson, McGinist and Slade
In 2001, we had a need at LB. We brought in Phifer, Vrabel and Cox.
In 2003, we had a need at LB. We brought in Colvin.
IN 2005, we had a need at LB. We brought in Beisel and Chad Brown.
In 2006, we had a need at LB. we brought in Seau.
In 2007, we had a need at LB. We brought in Thomas.
In 2008, we had a need at LB. We drafted Mayo and brought in Seau & Colvin.
In 2009, we had a need at LB. We brought in Banta-Cain.

The patriots have not developed a LB this decade.

Perhaps Woods, Guyton, Redd, and Craig will be the exceptions.

Perhaps Crable, like Mayo, is a top talent that need little development.

If all goes according to plan, Crable will start this year.

I think the picture you paint is incomplete.

In 2003 we aggressively signed the top FA OLB out there, Roosevelt Colvin. He had some problems adjusting and then got hurt, and took 2+ years before he started producing for us.

In 2004 BB passed on one of my binkies, Karlos Dansby, at #32 in favor of Ben Watson. I think that hurt us.

In 2005 BB drafted Ryan Claridge from UNLV in the 5th round, who was considered a solid prospect. He had personal issues and never played for us. I personally think that BB had his eye on Lofa Tatupu and would have taken him at #64 (he was projected as a 3rd-4th round guy) but Seattle shocked everyone by "reaching" for him at 45 and we traded out of the 2nd round. BB clearly was mistaken in his assessment of Brown and Beisel, who were too slow and/or clueless to play in our scheme.

In 2006 a lot of people thought the Pats would take Bobby Carpenter, who Mel Kiper compared to Mike Vrabel, but Dallas took him at #18 and he has been a bust. We passed on Manny Lawson at #21, and he hasn't done much either. We drafted Jeremy Mincey in the 6th, but he got beaten out by UDFA Pierre Woods (who had been projected as high as a 2nd-3rd round pick prior to his senior year but fell into disfavor with Lloyd Carr at Michigan). Our LB corps clearly began to show it's age, most notably in the AFCCG against Indy. BB immediately went out and signed Adalius Thomas.

In 2007 Jarvis Moss was considered the top DE/OLB conversion prospect, and was a popular pre-draft pick for the Pats. Denver traded up to take him at #17, and was offering him for a 7th round pick during the last draft. We had just brought Adalius Thomas in as a FA, so going after Lamarr Woodley was never that likely. A lot of people thought we should have taken David Harris at #28, but BB didn't like the value and traded the pick, and we eventually ended up with a much better player. BB was also rumored to have targetted Stuart Bradley in the 3rd round, but Philadelphia took him at #87 right before we picked at #91, and we traded our pick away (for what we eventually traded up to get Ron Brace this year). Like Colvin, Thomas struggled a bit to pick up the system and didn't make quite as big a splash as envisioned in 2007.

The aging of the LB corps was obvious by the end of 2007, and BB reacted in the 2008 draft by bringing in not only Mayo but also Crable (the two highest drafted LBs in BB's tenure) as well as FA's Guyton and Redd, and 6th rounder Bo Ruud. A lot of people wanted Vernon Gholston, but he went #6, and did nothing. BB also brought in FA LB Victor Hobson who has been a 2nd round pick, but he was beaten out by Guyton and didn't make the squad.

So I don't think BB has exactly ignored the LB position. He has passed on some of my favorite prospects (Dansby, Barwin), but he has brought in 2 top FA LBs (Colvin and Thomas) and spent a high 1st and 3rd on the position recently. I think he just missed on 2 prospects who could easily have ended up Pats in Lofa Tatupa (at WILB) and Stuart Bradley (at SILB). And most of the top DE/OLB prospects were off the board long before the Pats have picked in most drafts.

As for the claims that Pittsburgh takes top LBs and is always loaded, I think those are also skewed. Joey Porter was a 3rd round pick in 1999, Clark Haggans a 5th rounder in 2000, Larry Foote a 4th rounder in 2002, and James Harrison an UDFA in 2002. The Steelers did take LBs in the 2nd round in 2001 (Kendrell Bell) and 2003 (Alonzo Jackson), but they didn't produce much. Pittsburgh took LBs at #15 and #46 in 2007; the Pats took LBs at #10 and #78 at 2008 (and they were going to take Crable at #69 before SD offered to trade their 2009 2nd round pick). Pittsburgh signed FA James Farrior, who was not considered an elite FA in 2002. The Pats signed FA LBs Roosevelt Colvin and Adalius Thomas, who were the top rated FA LBs in their respective years.

At this point BB has invested time and effort developing Pierre Woods (2006), Shawn Crable (2008), Vince Redd (2008) and Gary Guyton (2008). If he thinks they're worth continuing to develop, I don't see a problem with that.

 

[RayClay]

The problem, if you wish to call it that, with the linebacking corps has been bad luck. Johnson retired at the last minute: nothing wrong with his retiring, but the timing set the team back.

Ted Johnson? It's 2009!

The increased price of cotton after the Civil War might have made the uniforms to tight too.

 

[RayClay]

Ray, you made an argument about the way the Steelers were getting their linebackers. It was a bad argument, and it was flat out wrong. Just admit it and move on.

Kendrell Bell

Larry Foote

Lamarr Woodley

Lawrence Timmons stepping in with the luxury of two years to learn

Joey Porter drafted in 1999...

James Farrior acquired

After six years of competition Harrison emerged as a FA.

Mike Vrabel. They even drafted our best LB addition of the decade for us.

Is this the Baghdad Bob defense,Deus, I'm confused.

 

[Deus Irae]

It is not bad luck if we count on three undrafted free agents and they don't step up. It wouldn't be bad luck if Bruschi just doesn't have much left in the tank. A team prepares for such contingencies. And no, a team doesn't need to have 25 pro-bowlers. However, we recently had five top LB's and built our defense around them. Change is fine, but then the secondary will need to pick up the slack.

First off, this team did not recently have 5 top LBs and built its defense around them. Secondly, you can't address every problem in a year or two (or even 3) of the draft in today's NFL. Third, there's not a single position on this team being manned solely by 3 undrafted free agents. Fourth, the team has tried to prepare for "such contingencies", as you put it. Preparing and succeeding aren't the same, as I was trying to get across. Fifth, you're making my point about people who piss and moan any time this team doesn't achieve perfection. This defense was in the top 10 last season and will likely be better than that this year if it can stay healthy.

Tully wasn't good enough to start when he was here. I hope that he developed some while at SF. In any case, I think that he was a good addition.

TBC started 6 games for the team in 2006.

As I have indicated, a healthy Thomas is the key at OLB. I am fine with the committee on the other side.

Then you're more comfortable here than I am.

================================================================
I am much more concerned about our situation inside. While everyone here was screaming for an OLB, I was one of those screaming for an ILB. As Reiss indicates, the situation is a concern. I wanted to draft Laurinitis. I want us to sign Harris. As Reiss points out, there are still many ways to address this need, including trades. But make no mistake, we have a considerable need at ILB.
===================================================================

It depends upon how you define "considerable need". Clearly, after all, you're not correct when it comes to Mayo. Also, clearly, the duo of Bruschi/Guyton was adequate last season. Your argument about the linebackers is really one of depth and, perhaps, one starter. This team is really only questionable at 3 positions (#2 CB, 1 ILB spot and 1 OLB spot) even at this early point in the offseason. That's certainly no worse than any other 'elite' NFL team this offseason that I can think of at the moment. Just go take a look at Pittsburgh's O-line, and take a gander at the age of that defensive line. Heck, nevermind that, just take a look at this passage from a Pittburgh site:

Inside Linebacker on they other hand doesn't have a lot of depth; according to the Steelers website the only players on the roster who are listed as Inside Linebackers are Farrior, Timmons, and Keyaron Fox. Fox was re-signed this off season to a modest two year deal and looks to be the primary back-up at middle linebacker.

Pittsburgh Steelers 2009 Roster Analysis- TheLinebackers - Behind the Steel Curtain

 

[Deus Irae]

Kendrell Bell

Larry Foote

Lamarr Woodley

Lawrence Timmons stepping in with the luxury of two years to learn

Joey Porter drafted in 1999...

James Farrior acquired

After six years of competition Harrison emerged as a FA.

Mike Vrabel. They even drafted our best LB addition of the decade for us.

Is this the Baghdad Bob defense,Deus, I'm confused.

Bell was in 2001, Porter was before that, and Farrior is no more of a 'get' than any number of Patriots additions at LB, so I don't know where you're going with this. It's as if you've completely forgotten your own argument. You made a claim about the Steelers:

The Steelers drafted LB with their first and second pick in 2007. They had been acquiring linebackers in the top of the draft and top FAs like Farrior for years.

That's simply not the case, as I showed, unless you're now going to say "Well, yeah, except for that long stretch where they didn't....." which is what killed your argument in the first place. You and Mg have taken a deliberate move by the Patriots, which is the bringing in of veteran linebackers, and tried turning it into some huge negative when it's been nothing of the kind.

 

[Deus Irae]

This offseason really needs to end soon, because far too many established posters are just absolutely losing their minds this year.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ted Johnson? It's 2009!

The increased price of cotton after the Civil War might have made the uniforms to tight too.

You're bringing up Bell, Farrior, Porter and the like. Please don't go there about Johnson. I'm beginning to question your sobriety/mental state at this point already.

 

[mayoclinic]

Kendrell Bell 2nd round pick in 2001, made DROY but then did nothing and has been an NFL journeyman

Larry Foote 4th round pick in 2002

Lamarr Woodley

Lawrence Timmons stepping in with the luxury of two years to learn

Joey Porter drafted in 1999... 3rd round pick

James Farrior acquired Drafted #8 in 1997 by the Jets, was OK but not great for them, so they let him become a FA after 2001; he was not considered a premier FA in 2002

After six years of competition Harrison emerged as a FA. Signed as a UDFA in 2002

Mike Vrabel. They even drafted our best LB addition of the decade for us. And they couldn't develop him - he started 0 games in 4 years with them before we picked him up as a castoff in 2001.

Is this the Baghdad Bob defense,Deus, I'm confused.

See comments in red above. You can also add Alonzo Jackson, who was drafted in the 2nd round (#59) in 2003, who lasted 2 seasons with the Steelers and 4 in the NFL, producing nothing.

The Steelers have had some terrific successes at LB, but also some major misses. They failed to develop Mike Vrabel and had two 2nd round picks not pan out. Their mid-late successes have clearly benefitted from having one of the all-time great DCs in **** LeBeau.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. James Farrior may have been the #8 pick in 1997, but he was not an elite FA when the Steelers picked him up. James Harrison is an elite player now, regardless that he was originally signed as an UDFA. Adalius Thomas may have been a 6th round pick in 2000 and Roosevelt Colvin a 4th round pick in 1999, but both were pro bowl players and elite FAs when the Pats signed them. The Pats have been selective but aggressive about targeting the LB position (Thomas, Colvin, Mayo).

 

[RayClay]

Bell was in 2001, Porter was before that, and Farrior is no more of a 'get' than any number of Patriots additions at LB, so I don't know where you're going with this. It's as if you've completely forgotten your own argument. You made a claim about the Steelers:



That's simply not the case, as I showed, unless you're now going to say "Well, yeah, except for that long stretch where they didn't....." which is what killed your argument in the first place. You and Mg have taken a deliberate move by the Patriots, which is the bringing in of veteran linebackers, and tried turning it into some huge negative when it's been nothing of the kind.

If you're going to stand there soaking wet and tell me it's sunny, I don't know how to respond.

Pittsburgh always has competition at LB, usually because they draft it and acquire it. Yes, they have rounds in the draft. 2 is better than 7.

Inside Linebacker on the other hand doesn't have a lot of depth; according to the Steelers website the only players on the roster who are listed as Inside Linebackers are Farrior, Timmons, and Keyaron Fox. Fox was re-signed this off season to a modest two year deal and looks to be the primary back-up at middle linebacker.

So you're telling me Pittsburgh is reduced to starting two former first round choices at ILB? Wow, that's awful. 8th and fifteenth overall. Obviously they haven't prepared like us.

-----

Wow, Their Outside linebacker situation looks critical too! Only 27.5 sacks last year. Maybe we can trade them some of our surplus LB talent.

The tandem of Lamar Woodley and James Harrison set a Steelers record for most sacks by a pair of linebackers with 27.5. It's remarkable to think that the 2009 season will only be Woodley and Harrisons' second season together as starters, and it shouldn't be surprising if they continue to get better next year. If the two can remain healthy throughout the season I don't think there is a better duo of pass rushers currently playing in the NFL. Harrison and Woodley have the outside linebacker position locked down for the next few years, and I wouldn't expect any of the outside linebacking reserves to get signifigant playing time unless major injuries occur.

 

[RayClay]

See comments in red above. You can also add Alonzo Jackson, who was drafted in the 2nd round (#59) in 2003, who lasted 2 seasons with the Steelers and 4 in the NFL, producing nothing.

The Steelers have had some terrific successes at LB, but also some major misses. They failed to develop Mike Vrabel and had two 2nd round picks not pan out. Their mid-late successes have clearly benefitted from having one of the all-time great DCs in **** LeBeau.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. James Farrior may have been the #8 pick in 1997, but he was not an elite FA when the Steelers picked him up. James Harrison is an elite player now, regardless that he was originally signed as an UDFA. Adalius Thomas may have been a 6th round pick in 2000 and Roosevelt Colvin a 4th round pick in 1999, but both were pro bowl players and elite FAs when the Pats signed them. The Pats have been selective but aggressive about targeting the LB position (Thomas, Colvin, Mayo).

Now be fair and list our draft picks at linebacker. You are actually making my point. Pittsburgh isn't luckier or smarter, they put more resources into it, therefore have more competition.

Again, you mention two linebackers left in 8 years. We start four. I'm not counting colvin because he doesn't even want to play anymore (or much less, in his case)

 

[Deus Irae]

If you're going to stand there soaking wet and tell me it's sunny, I don't know how to respond.

Pittsburgh always has competition at LB, usually because they draft it and acquire it. Yes, they have rounds in the draft. 2 is better than 7.



So you're telling me Pittsburgh is reduced to starting two former first round choices at ILB? Wow, that's awful. 8th and fifteenth overall. Obviously they haven't prepared like us.

-----

Wow, Their Outside linebacker situation looks critical too! Only 27.5 sacks last year. Maybe we can trade them some of our surplus LB talent.

You've been drinking, haven't you?