Is Koppen Too Small

[DaBruinz]

I don't think so. The run blocking was stellar last year, what exactly changed has around the league this offseason that would change that?

As a whole, you'd be correct. However, at the beginning of the year, the O-line was hit or miss. They didn't really stabilize until Neal came back. And don't let the games against poor run defenses cloud your thinking. The Pats wracked up a TON of yards on some pretty poor teams (Denver/Oakland)

The Jets still have Jenkins
The Phins still have Furguson
Denver switched to a 3-4, but have no NT
KC will run a hybrid 3-4/4-3 mix, but have no NT
Green Bay isn't on the schedule.

KC has no NT? Ron Edwards has the size to be a NT. Also, AZ was thought to not have a NT either. Yet Pendergast, who helped Casey Hampton become a star, helped get the 3-4 going in AZ. Don't be surprised if KC picks up someone like a Grady Jackson at some point before the start of the season.

Aside from Raji, who we will see no more than 3 times in his entire career, the only other big NT in this draft was drafted by the Patriots.

And given Koppen practices against Wilfork and soon Brace every week, I'm sure he knows how to handle these guys.

You can't dismiss that Koppen had troubles last year against Jenkins and Marcus Stroud last year. As well as Ferguson. Part of it could have been trying to compensate for the loss of Neal. But some of it was that Koppen was just dominated.

One of the things that I've learned is that BB will make do with the players he has at some positions if he feels the need is greater at others. And I believe that was clearly the case with not taking a center this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see BB draft a center in the 2010 draft though.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Pick your poison--

With bigger less mobile guys you get more blocking on the nose and can run better though the center-guard gaps, but with smaller more mobile guys you can get more downfield blocking on screens and counters.

What we may give up on short-yardage offense we gain in other ways and more, IMO, particularly with plays using Faulk and Welker.

Of course you'd liketo have super-mobile big guys with good hands and quick feet to be able to do everything, but it's impossible to stock a roster with the very best of everything in a cap-constrained world.

 

[Deus Irae]

it's impossible to stock a roster with the very best of everything in a cap-constrained world.

This needs to be pointed out in so many threads.... It seems that people here like to forget this.

 

[Sicilian]

Of course you'd liketo have super-mobile big guys with good hands and quick feet to be able to do everything, but it's impossible to stock a roster with the very best of everything in a cap-constrained world.

Not only that, but honestly if a former pro-bowl center is the "concession" you have to make on your roster, I think you're doing pretty well.

 

[TheBaronPatriot]

Koppen had a pretty bad year last year getting driven back by DTs a lot. Kris Jenkins especially dominated him

I remember Jenkins knocking him back 2-3 yards within a second of the snap.
That was a sad site to be behold.

Can those of us who have experience coaching or playing Oline in the pros comment on how a 300 lb er can take a 350 lb er??

I'll chime in with my 3 (that's right, 3!!!) years of varsity (top level) high school experience (a notch or two below NFL, especially MA football). When I played bigger guys it was about technique, getting lower, and getting better leverage, but with Jenkins it seems he was under Koppen and driving him back like his daddy.

But given equal technique Koppen would still lose due to Jenkins size and strength combo. So he either has to use his own momentum against him and take him away from the play or... Double team or trap the big monster.

But either way, Koppen did not have the strength or technique to take Jenkins 1 on 1 last year.

The real question is:
Should any center be able to handle a good NT 1 on 1?
The answer is no.
So I think Koppen is fine for now.

 

[spacecrime]

big things come in small packages.

But really big things need big packages.

 

[Sicilian]

high school experience (a notch or two below NFL, especially MA football).

A notch or two, huh? Riiiiiight...

 

[AzPatsFan]

Hoch was starting to struggle as a Guard, you could see it in 2007 and again last season. He's still good at Center where he has help, but I'd not consider him an upgrade for Koppen.

Wood, Mack, Unger, Koppen, there's trade-offs to be made. I wanted Wood as a reserve Guard behind Neal and Mankins, and as a back-up for Koppen, Mack or Unger would have been the same for me.

Koppen struggled last year, but so did Mankins and Yates at the beginning of the season. For all the troubles attributed to Koppen, please note that Joyner attributed 197 run attempts behind him - #2 on the team by a good margin.

The battle inside is often one of leverage over brute strength, one of the reasons Neal is so good with his wrestling background. Mankins and Koppen are both known as technicians, they get good leverage too. Ohrnberger and Bussey both get good marks for being technicians, as does Wendell who came out the Fresno State program under BB's old O-line coach to also developed Mankins.

I'm content with Koppen as #1 Center.

In alll your considerations, you overlooked the most likely. If Volmer pushed Kaczur out of a job at RT, Nick would be free to join the Guard battle. Where upon he would instantly go to the top reserve position above Hochstein.

 

[DaBruinz]

In alll your considerations, you overlooked the most likely. If Volmer pushed Kaczur out of a job at RT, Nick would be free to join the Guard battle. Where upon he would instantly go to the top reserve position above Hochstein.

Not necessarily. In fact, I don't know if Kaczur would be as good of a guard as Hochstein. Not that Hochstein is a guarantee for the guard position. I'll be honest, with him being on a 1 year deal, I wouldn't be surprised if he was cut in TC.

 

[Deus Irae]

Not necessarily. In fact, I don't know if Kaczur would be as good of a guard as Hochstein. Not that Hochstein is a guarantee for the guard position. I'll be honest, with him being on a 1 year deal, I wouldn't be surprised if he was cut in TC.

Well, they have to make space for the two rookies, so someone's going to be out of luck.

 

[DaBruinz]

Well, they have to make space for the two rookies, so someone's going to be out of luck.

Don't you mean 3 rookies? Vollmer, Bussey, and Ohrnberger?

Guys on the bubble. Hochstein, Yates, Connolly, Johnson, Britt and O'Callaghan. The Pats usually carry between 8 and 9 OL. You're right in that someone's going to be out of luck.

 

[Deus Irae]

Don't you mean 3 rookies? Vollmer, Bussey, and Ohrnberger?

Guys on the bubble. Hochstein, Yates, Connolly, Johnson, Britt and O'Callaghan. The Pats usually carry between 8 and 9 OL. You're right in that someone's going to be out of luck.

Well, I figure that only 2 of the rookies are actually 'locks' of any sort. Bussey's a practice squad candidate, imo.

Of course, I could be reading it wrong.

 

[Schmo]

Don't you mean 3 rookies? Vollmer, Bussey, and Ohrnberger?

Guys on the bubble. Hochstein, Yates, Connolly, Johnson, Britt and O'Callaghan. The Pats usually carry between 8 and 9 OL. You're right in that someone's going to be out of luck.

Hochstein? Really? I know he's a 'backup', but he is arguably the 3rd most valuable lineman we have.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

In alll your considerations, you overlooked the most likely. If Volmer pushed Kaczur out of a job at RT, Nick would be free to join the Guard battle. Where upon he would instantly go to the top reserve position above Hochstein.

It's possible, but I'm not projecting anyone other than the five returning starters, the reserves have to battle for a position and those kids with Practice Squad eligibility have a fallback option to battle for. Vollmer may be the next best thing to sliced bread, but his pre-draft reports indicate a kid who isn't as accomplished as first year starters Light, Koppen, Mankins, and Kaczur, so it may be premature to expect him to jump in his first year and win a starting job.

 

[mgteich]

You're not reading it worng. Only Bussey's agant, mother and DeBruinz (one of the two?) is giving Bussey much of chance for a roster spot. IMHO, Bussey will have to work his butt off to beat out Wendall and Connelly for a Practice Squad spot.

Well, I figure that only 2 of the rookies are actually 'locks' of any sort. Bussey's a practice squad candidate, imo.

Of course, I could be reading it wrong.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ok, technical question..... is there any way to get "strike through" text to work here?

 

[mgteich]

I agree. The only ones who want to replace our starting OL are posters to boards like this one. Depending on the CBA situation and Neal's health, we could have turnover in 2010 on the startng OL. Vollmer and Ohrenberger look like they could be ready to compete if roster spots open.

I think that Dante will give Vollmer and Ohrenberger the year they need to develop.

Personally, I don't expect either to be activated many times this year unless there is an injury. I expect LeVoir and Hochstein to be the Game Day backups.

It's possible, but I'm not projecting anyone other than the five returning starters, the reserves have to battle for a position and those kids with Practice Squad eligibility have a fallback option to battle for. Vollmer may be the next best thing to sliced bread, but his pre-draft reports indicate a kid who isn't as accomplished as first year starters Light, Koppen, Mankins, and Kaczur, so it may be premature to expect him to jump in his first year and win a starting job.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Hochstein? Really? I know he's a 'backup', but he is arguably the 3rd most valuable lineman we have.

Yet you'd be hard pressed to find something he does that cannot be duplicated by another member of the team. The question then becomes who does it best and is it the most necessary skill for the team to take into the season? Hochstein has his work cut out for him.

 

[BradyManny]

I found Reiss comments that Al Johnson was signed and could compete with Koppen interesting. I don't think he's suggesting Johnson could win the job - and I don't think there's much chance he will - but I do think Johnson is an underrated signing. He's been a starter when healthy (3 seasons with 14+ starts), he should provide good depth.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Rookie lineman likes to keep it loose – New England Patriots - NESN.com

BB and Dante aren't going exactly large inside.