Out On A Limb Regarding Linebackers

[RayClay]

I think there is a fact of life that everyone seems to want to ignore.
Our 2nd ILB plays half the time at most. WIth Mayo the long term answer as the primary ILB, we will not move Thomas inside, we will not draft an ilb high, we will not sign a major FA ILB. It is a part-time player at that position.
In the history of BBs defenses all the way back to the Giants the 2nd ILB has almost always been a JAG. That isnt changing. Think Gary Reasons, Steve DeOssie, Ted Johnson, etc.
At OLB I think there is talent there that we have not fully seen enough to evaluate but BB is way ahead of us on.

Ted Johnson was drafted higher than any LB we've used in the BB era except McGinest and now Mayo (Phifer was also a second rounder, but at the end of his career).

 

[mgteich]

Yes, before the draft started, we had 7 picks available for depth in the first four rounds, and after moving around, we used SEVEN. McKenzie is already gone for 2009. Tate is being projected as 2010 help. There may be a bit of help on special teams in 2009 (from Chung and Butler), but for the most part, we drafted for depth, injury insurance (Brace) and more importantly for the future, and we did draft some competition at deep snapper.

Alex Smith and McGowan could end up contributing as much in 2009 as many of the draft choices.

We went into the draft with 25 starters on the roster (I include K, P and nickel). I don't think we planned to add any. We didn't.

I think you may have made a pre-draft report that essentially indicated that this team was in good shape with all its starters set BEFORE the draft.

Our depth has improved since then but I think all this talk about the NEED for an LB is exaggerated.

I think depth and future development is what we're talking about - and while I'd like to have more, barring injury (which is easier said than done) I'm not overly concerned about LB in 2009.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Well now, I'm reluctant to classify Adalius as either an ILB or an OLB. The more Pees can move him around in the formation the more difficult it will be for offensive coordinators to game plan around him. Mayo is fixed inside, but flexibility with Adalius could really help the defense for NE.

I expect Guyton and Woods to play well, and I expect to see improvement from Redd - I just don't know how big a jump he'll make. BB has been comfortable with Alexander as a #4 ILB, he'll be good in that role as a primary Special Teams player.

Bruschi, Crable, Banta-Cain, and Craig are open questions for me, TBC because he was playing at a heavier weight in SF so his conditioning is going to be a concern, the two youngsters for being unknowns though I've seen good things from both in preseason or college. Bru is still an asset in situational play and as a mentor to the kids, I expect Guyton to allow Bru to be used more sparingly. Ciurciu and Appleby, who can say.

 

[Jimke]

Well now, I'm reluctant to classify Adalius as either an ILB or an OLB. The more Pees can move him around in the formation the more difficult it will be for offensive coordinators to game plan around him. Mayo is fixed inside, but flexibility with Adalius could really help the defense for NE.

I expect Guyton and Woods to play well, and I expect to see improvement from Redd - I just don't know how big a jump he'll make. BB has been comfortable with Alexander as a #4 ILB, he'll be good in that role as a primary Special Teams player.

Bruschi, Crable, Banta-Cain, and Craig are open questions for me, TBC because he was playing at a heavier weight in SF so his conditioning is going to be a concern, the two youngsters for being unknowns though I've seen good things from both in preseason or college. Bru is still an asset in situational play and as a mentor to the kids, I expect Guyton to allow Bru to be used more sparingly. Ciurciu and Appleby, who can say.

This is a good analysis. The clinker is the injury factor which has

already struck this position.

 

[mgteich]

I don't know why Crable is a mystery. He was highly drafted by Belichick. He played very well in preseason. The only question I have is whether he is 100% healed from his injuries. If he is, then I expect him to continue to develop and to compete for a 2010 starting position at OLB.

Bruschi is a question mark. The slide has begun. The only question is how fast and how long he can be a significant contributer.

I expect Banta-Cain to be brought into patriot game shape. I expect that Belichick asked him to make that comittment. At very least, he is the #5 OLB and a fine special teamer. At best, he will be competing for reps with Woods.

With McKenzie injured, there is certainly an opportunity for an UDFA to beat out Alexander, as the emergency #4 ILB and top special teamer. However, barring injury, or a Bruschi retirement, I think this unlikely to happen, but it certainly could. I am satisfied with Banta-Cain and Alexander as emergency linebackers and special teamers. We used to have Izzo and Davis. I suspect Belichick is OK with them also.

In any given game, six linebackers probably get 95% or more of the reps on the defense. We need an additional OLB backup and a couple of special teamers.

OLB: Thomas, Woods, Crable, Redd
ILB: Mayo, Guyton, Bruschi
LB/ST: Banta-Cain, Alexander

Well now, I'm reluctant to classify Adalius as either an ILB or an OLB. The more Pees can move him around in the formation the more difficult it will be for offensive coordinators to game plan around him. Mayo is fixed inside, but flexibility with Adalius could really help the defense for NE.

I expect Guyton and Woods to play well, and I expect to see improvement from Redd - I just don't know how big a jump he'll make. BB has been comfortable with Alexander as a #4 ILB, he'll be good in that role as a primary Special Teams player.

Bruschi, Crable, Banta-Cain, and Craig are open questions for me, TBC because he was playing at a heavier weight in SF so his conditioning is going to be a concern, the two youngsters for being unknowns though I've seen good things from both in preseason or college. Bru is still an asset in situational play and as a mentor to the kids, I expect Guyton to allow Bru to be used more sparingly. Ciurciu and Appleby, who can say.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I don't know why Crable is a mystery. He was highly drafted by Belichick. He played very well in preseason. The only question I have is whether he is 100% healed from his injuries. If he is, then I expect him to continue to develop and to compete for a 2010 starting position at OLB.

That is total horse pucky. The third round is no guarantee of anything as you yourself have noted often enough. You can't know anymore than anyone else outside the Patriots organization how Crable has progressed. Yes, he showed some potential in preseason games against second and third string talent: Is he any stronger? Has he improved his technique? I'm not worried about his recovery from his shin injury, but how many practice reps did he miss out on and how far back did that set him? Since you can't answer those questions, he's a mystery.

I expect Banta-Cain to be brought into patriot game shape. I expect that Belichick asked him to make that comittment. At very least, he is the #5 OLB and a fine special teamer. At best, he will be competing for reps with Woods.

Expectations have a way of not being met. I'm sure TBC will work hard to meet the standards he'll be asked to meet, that doesn't mean he gets there and it doesn't mean he lacked commitment. If he plays heavier than the 250 he was reportedly playing at when he left here I won't be sure of his capability and neither will you. I'm not so worried about Special Teams, but I'm looking for him to be at least as good an OLB as he was when he left, we can't be sure yet. If he loses the weight he "should" have his old explosiveness off the edge, there are still a number of factors that can affect his play and we won't know how he's doing until he's on the field.

 

[Pats726]

That is total horse pucky. The third round is no guarantee of anything as you yourself have noted often enough. You can't know anymore than anyone else outside the Patriots organization how Crable has progressed. Yes, he showed some potential in preseason games against second and third string talent: Is he any stronger? Has he improved his technique? I'm not worried about his recovery from his shin injury, but how many practice reps did he miss out on and how far back did that set him? Since you can't answer those questions, he's a mystery.

Expectations have a way of not being met. I'm sure TBC will work hard to meet the standards he'll be asked to meet, that doesn't mean he gets there and it doesn't mean he lacked commitment. If he plays heavier than the 250 he was reportedly playing at when he left here I won't be sure of his capability and neither will you. I'm not so worried about Special Teams, but I'm looking for him to be at least as good an OLB as he was when he left, we can't be sure yet. If he loses the weight he "should" have his old explosiveness off the edge, there are still a number of factors that can affect his play and we won't know how he's doing until he's on the field.

I tend to agree...there are question marks...I am also sure CoachB will know this a bit better than us what to expect and where the window is of playing upside/downside. Maybe less question marks in his eyes..

 

[jays52]

IMO, moving Thomas inside is not a viable option. He is our best pass rusher, our best TE defender and a dominant presence on the outside. In the 34, the strongside inside backer is almost a fullback. I don't know if they have a single designated check calling ala a "mike", but assuming the strongside backer doesn't call the checks, it is likely the least valuable position in the front 7. Putting Thomas on the inside would take your only truely freakish athlete and place him in a position that mitigates nearly all of a player's raw athleticism.

Further, it would remove the best edge presence on the team in a spread heavy league. Regardless of the potential development of C&R, neither is close to being the player AD is. This team is already weak against the TE, and doesn't have anyone other than Thomas who can rush as well as play contain on the outside. Moving Thomas inside would be schematic suicide. The move would be akin to moving Randy Moss to fullback because Evans left in the offseason.

 

[jczxohn1]

Expectations have a way of not being met. I'm sure TBC will work hard to meet the standards he'll be asked to meet, that doesn't mean he gets there and it doesn't mean he lacked commitment. If he plays heavier than the 250 he was reportedly playing at when he left here I won't be sure of his capability and neither will you. I'm not so worried about Special Teams, but I'm looking for him to be at least as good an OLB as he was when he left, we can't be sure yet. If he loses the weight he "should" have his old explosiveness off the edge, there are still a number of factors that can affect his play and we won't know how he's doing until he's on the field.

IMHO, I was surprised TBC was brought back. I though he was one-dimensional as a pass-rusher, and was usually out of control when he did break containment. Some of his penalties for QB hits were memorable for their stupidity. His record in SF didn't show much,either. Hope I'm wrong, but----

 

[mgteich]

Even if Tully is only a pass-rusher, last I heard we needed one of those.

IMHO, I was surprised TBC was brought back. I though he was one-dimensional as a pass-rusher, and was usually out of control when he did break containment. Some of his penalties for QB hits were memorable for their stupidity. His record in SF didn't show much,either. Hope I'm wrong, but----

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Remember when TBC had Jacksonville's Jones-Drew wrapped and then allowed him to go for a long TD?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Remember when TBC had Jacksonville's Jones-Drew wrapped and then allowed him to go for a long TD?

The guy had been down, even if not by contact. Rodney missing the tackle was a more egregious mistake on that play, stuff happens, nothing to carry over past the postmortem.

 

[satz]

Guyton subed in thrid down as the coverage LB. i do not get why people want this 245 lb fast LB to take on 300 lb gaurds in running /early downs. its a sure way to get his injured or lose speed as he being beat up by 300 LB gaurds.

thomas will stay out . mayo is going to play alot the other LB does not matter as we have bru the slower but college DE who can actually plays big against gaurds.the we have guyton on 3rd down which will be shared by chung.

chung /guyton with be the thrid down coverage package depending on how fast/talented the TE /SLot receiver /RB is.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Um, a little panicked here? The 2005 team was starting Brown and Beisel. I understand that Guyton and Woods are JAGs by the powerful, mid-decade LB standards, but they have already proven to be better than Brown and Beisel.

not panicked at all.......just seeing the situation for what it is worth.........at least they could play colvin and mcginest on the outside and vrabel inside, and bruschi returned for the 2nd half of the season

the current LB group doesn't even come close to this........you have 2 spots filled with starter qualityl........I do think that guyton could be the answer for the other inside spot, but it is pointless if the pats have to depend on crable,woods, redd, or TBC from the outset this season

 

[patsfan-1982]

mayo and guyton inside AD and crable or woods outside this would be the fastest LB core we have had in yers who out there is better jason taylor ? he maybe to old and to slow to get to the QB or to cover a TE there is no demarcus ware or james harrison out there to pickup so lets see what the young guys got

 

[Rob0729]

INSIDE LINEBACKER
We are fine for the forseeable future with Thomas, Mayo and Guyton. For 2009, we still have Bruschi inside. We need a developmental fourth for the future. Hopefully, that is McKenzie. In the meantime, we will have six OLB's and 3 ILB's, with Thomas moving inside in case of injury and in certain situations. Obviously, at least two of the OLB's will take lost of reps as special team specialists, as backup linebackers always do.

OUTSIDE LINEBACKERS
I think that there will be an addition in the next month. I also think that Belichick sees the future in Crable, Redd, Woods and even Banta-Cain.

BOTTOM LINE
We are still in transition at linebacker. This year should see the last year of Bruschi and further development of Mayo, Guyton, Crable, and Redd. Woods And Tully may stay after 2009 or not. They are fine special teamers. We should see another free agent addition. First there was Vrabel. Then there was Thomas and now there is ........

AD isn't an ILB. He played that position the first year because of a need at the position, but with Colvin and Vrabel gone, he is the best OLB the Pats have by a bunch. No way he goes back inside except on a situational basis even if the Pats get either Jason Taylor (somewhat likely) or Julius Peppers (not likely at all).

I'm not sold with Guyton as a full-time starter yet. Even if he is, we are still thin at that position.

As for the guys other than AD at OLB, I don't think Belichick is sold on any of them. If the rumors about the Pats' interest in Jason Taylor and/or Peppers is true, then Belichick is clearly not sold on the other guys at the position. Crable hasn't played a down of football in his career. How can Belichick be sold on him for the future? If he was sold on TBC for the future, why was he given a one year deal? At this point, I don't see Redd making the team because of all the new players added, how roster spots will be at a premium, and especially if Taylor is added, the OLB position seems to have a lot of players for the number of spots available. I think if Belichick thought Wood was starter material, I don't think he would have gotten Colvin back last year and used him as extensively as he did.

I don't think the LB position is a liability especially if they get Jason Taylor, but I don't think it is as sound as you say it is. I think with Taylor the Pats will have enough to get by this year, but I expect Belichick to be active next year (assuming his hands aren't tied by the top 8 team rule) in trying to get potential starters at two of the positions. Who knows Guyton may turn into a solid full-time starter and one of the back up OLBs emerge.

 

[Rob0729]

The guy had been down, even if not by contact. Rodney missing the tackle was a more egregious mistake on that play, stuff happens, nothing to carry over past the postmortem.

Yeah if I remember correctly, you had to look at the replay three times to get a definitive answer whether his knee was down. How could anyone in real time on the field think anything else other than he was down. Freak plays like that are heartbreaking, but shouldn't be used to judge a player's career.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

mayo and guyton inside AD and crable or woods outside this would be the fastest LB core we have had in yers who out there is better jason taylor ? he maybe to old and to slow to get to the QB or to cover a TE there is no demarcus ware or james harrison out there to pickup so lets see what the young guys got

We already have linebackers.
AD
DROY-Mayo!
Gary Guyton
TBC
Bruschi

Shawn Crable runs a 4.6. He can get in the backfield quickly. In college, Shawn played for Michigan and was 2nd in the nation for tackles for losses. He is also a reknowned hard hitter. We didn't get to see enough last year because of his injury.

Pierre Woods can switch from right to left OLB easily and has time in the system. He could cover some of Vrables position.


Vince Redd was drafted in the 2008 class as the tallest and fastest at his position. In college he had the highest broken up pass statistic. People need to remember this athlete will be ready to compete. He's big and athletic.

I'm anxious to see what we have.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

I forgot to add some of the excellent secondary talent we've acquired that could present multi-position players

 

[mgteich]

The big hole is at inside linebacker. I suggested Thomas; most said that didn't make sense.
Without Thomas, these are our ILB's.

Mayo - stud and future all pro
Bruschi - he's starting, but how much can we expect this year
Guyton - pass down specialist and hopefully future stater
Alexander - our ILB special teamer, who should have no reps at linebacker

And with our 34th pick, we picked a safety.

We already have linebackers.
AD
DROY-Mayo!
Gary Guyton
TBC
Bruschi

Shawn Crable runs a 4.6. He can get in the backfield quickly. In college, Shawn played for Michigan and was 2nd in the nation for tackles for losses. He is also a reknowned hard hitter. We didn't get to see enough last year because of his injury.

Pierre Woods can switch from right to left OLB easily and has time in the system. He could cover some of Vrables position.


Vince Redd was drafted in the 2008 class as the tallest and fastest at his position. In college he had the highest broken up pass statistic. People need to remember this athlete will be ready to compete. He's big and athletic.

I'm anxious to see what we have.