Pass rushing OLBs addressed

[Ungeheuer]

I think BB even admitted this a little while ago.....Big Willy redefined the OLB position and setting the edge to BB, not the other way around. Athlete's that tall are rare, and BB doesnt like putting a square peg in a round hole too often. He is probably a bit jaded, understandably. He stopped looking for the next LT a long time ago.

Uh... I don't think so. Remember Lawrence Taylor and Carl Banks? They were pretty good, too.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Larry English was taken ahead of the Pats. Granted had they REALLY liked him they'd have traded up, but we'll never know if they felt he was worth selecting at #23. Had it been the all everything Barwin who went ahead of the Pats, we'd have a page full of told ya so threads today. So I think I'm allowed my one little rant. English's stock was consistently at the top from the beginning. You can site all the mocks/rankings you want, but I never believed he was really going to be the one to fall out of the 1st.

Mike Tanier’s Draft Wrap: The Schemes Matter - The Fifth Down Blog - NYTimes.com

The Chargers and the Cowboys run yet another variation on the 3-4. Their outside linebackers play with one hand in the dirt at the line of scrimmage and usually don’t drop into pass coverage. Their linemen usually attack one gap, not two like the linemen in New England. The Chargers-Cowboys scheme might better be called a 5-2, because the outside linebackers play like de facto defensive ends.

Each scheme has its own personnel requirements. One of the most interesting trends in this year’s draft was the emphasis these 3-4 teams placed on getting the right players to fit their schemes.

I liked English, but for NE I preferred him in the second round. With Shaun Phillips in the news with legal problems, San Diego had a critical need for an edge rusher. I'd have taken Larry English first for their system too. With any luck, Barwin will justify my analysis of his talents and help Houston rank both Tennessee and Jacksonville earlier in the draft so BB can abuse me - again - with those seconds he obtained in this draft.

 

[sg14]

Thought I'd bump this thread up,,

The fact that BB quoted size and speed as a reason not to draft someone sounded odd,, wasn't Bobby Grier the king of size-speed numbers. I always thought the Parcells tree was about production.

I'm reading this as one or two ways,," I got multiple players that I have to coach up, all have the physical size, speed I need, think I'll pass on paying alot to get a similar player." Or "My young guys are hungry for knowledge, have a great work ethic, good size, speed, all they need is time on the field".

Hope it's the second interpretation.

This could be story of the year, do these young guys come thru, or fall flat on their faces, Is this the big BB gamble?

Speaking of McGuinest, he was a very special player, #4 pick in the draft, but he was a high cut guy, long legs, agile, smart as they come, I wonder if BB sees any of that in these new guys?

I reacted that way when Larry English went off the board. Granted he's not 6'4 but I can't imagine BB passing on a guy with that much production in college because of a couple inches.

 

[mayoclinic]

Mike Tanier’s Draft Wrap: The Schemes Matter - The Fifth Down Blog - NYTimes.comI liked English, but for NE I preferred him in the second round. With Shaun Phillips in the news with legal problems, San Diego had a critical need for an edge rusher. I'd have taken Larry English first for their system too. With any luck, Barwin will justify my analysis of his talents and help Houston rank both Tennessee and Jacksonville earlier in the draft so BB can abuse me - again - with those seconds he obtained in this draft.

Nice quote from Tanier. I think that NE clearly puts the most coverage responsibilities on their OLBs of any of the major 3-4 teams. Shawn Merriman is not required to drop into coverage much, and it's certainly not a strength of his. I doubt SD will have the same requirements of Larry English that BB will have, and I think he is much better suited to their style.

 

[patchick]

The fact that BB quoted size and speed as a reason not to draft someone sounded odd,, wasn't Bobby Grier the king of size-speed numbers. I always thought the Parcells tree was about production.

Have to disagree, Parcells has always been focused on big guys. I seem to recall him waxing eloquent on the point when he chose Bledsoe over Mirer.

 

[ALP]

this might be a bit off topic....but

BB requires the OLB's to drop back into coverage at times, but he also requires the ILB's to drop back too no?

i believe BB just wants his players to both be able to rush and drop back, so that the defense doesnt know what to expect, im sure if he wanted BB could come up w/ a way to have the OLB's rush and the ILB's drop back

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

...im sure if he wanted BB could come up w/ a way to have the OLB's rush and the ILB's drop back

He did that last year.

 

[cstjohn17]

He did that last year.

I still think the title of the thread should be "Pass rushing OLBs ignored"

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I still think the title of the thread should be "Pass rushing OLBs ignored"

Considering the number of visits, I'd find that misleading and inaccurate.

 

[DW Toys]

Considering the number of visits, I'd find that misleading and inaccurate.

Perhaps they felt that Crable or Redd were better than the draft board at that point when they were up to bat? I did not include Wood or TBC because they might have the lowest upside for the specific OLB/DE Rusher role and needs. If only the second two were options, the draft board might have changed. At some point in time you have to put at least some of that group of four on the field and make use of the talent or eliminate them from contention. You can't keep stock piling them until one squeaks out of the mix if and when. You need to force the issue to see who steps up. As BB and even Mayock agreed this was a weak draft. 2009 first rounders were third rounders in another draft year.

Perhaps there is already a deal already in place for Taylor so he shows up at the last possible coordinated time to get enough reps in before the opening game. It has been said that Taylor does not want to come to OTAs because he would be away from his kids and the reason the Skins cut him is because he would not commit to their OTAs. The Pats would not want to upset the team vets by signing a player and then letting him slide until the absolute final stages of pre-season. So I am suggesting a "secret" signing might have happened. It's amazing to me that teams have not taken a swipe at him seriously at this point. The GM's of other teams might have been rebuffed by agent Gary Wichard. It is shaping up as a "Law" type of FA event.
DW Toys

 

[Urgent]

I think BB would have pulled the trigger on Barwin if he had slid to the end of the 2nd but otherwise didn't want to invest so highly in a project -- as talented as he is, he would still require a TON of learning to be a part of this D. We have enough OLB projects on the roster that drafting another high to sit on the bench and learn for 1-2 years did not make sense. I was shocked that he passed on Sintim so many times but I guess there is more faith in Woods and co. than I thought.

Makes some sense, but it sure seems like Vollmer is more of a project than, say, Barwin or Everette Brown, and Vollmer went in the second.

 

[mgteich]

I'm not sure I understand you point.

The patriots picked Chung (34), Brace (40) and Butler (41) early in the second. Clearly, Belichick valued these players higher than the rest mentioned, and likely considered them more ready to provide value to the team. I agree.

A previous poster indicated that Barwin might have been chosen by the patriots late in the second. Perhaps the patriots would have considered Barwin and Brown when they picked at 58. Perhaps the two had more value than Vollmer and were more ready. In any case, they were drafted at 46 and 43 and were long gone at 58 when we drafted Vollmer.

Makes some sense, but it sure seems like Vollmer is more of a project than, say, Barwin or Everette Brown, and Vollmer went in the second.

 

[PatsChowder]

To me, it seemed as if the entire draft shifted when they dealt away pick #26 (I believe) to Green Bay allowing the Packers to take Clay Matthews. Whether Matthews was the fit for the team or not it symbolized the idea that Belichick was much happier with the linebacking core than I thought he was.

Watching Matthews, Maualuga, and Sintim slip through the fingers was tough to watch, but apparently Belichick has a lot of faith in guys like Pierre Woods and the returning Tully Banta-Cain.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

As BB and even Mayock agreed this was a weak draft. 2009 first rounders were third rounders in another draft year.

Mayock said this was a weak draft, and he waited until the day of the draft to make that pronouncement. BB said this was a "deep" draft through the middle rounds on several occasions - it was so bad he drafted 12 players, four in the early rounds (1-2), four in the middle rounds (3-5), and four in the later rounds (6-7).

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Makes some sense, but it sure seems like Vollmer is more of a project than, say, Barwin or Everette Brown, and Vollmer went in the second.

I am not so sure Vollmer is a project. One of the scouting reports says that Vollmer could start from day one for a zone blocking team.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Does anybody have any stats on Hughes of TCU. Does he have the size and weight. He has an awesome first step off the edge.

 

[AzPatsFan]

No one here distinguishes between Strongside OLB and Weakside OLB. Yet in BB's system, they are two completely different sets of prime talents needed.

Everyone seems to think JT and AD would be a great,complete pair of OLBs. But in fact they are two players who can only share the same position, weakside OLB. BB wanted and had from McG and Vrabes, a different talent set for strongside OLB. He wanted the ability first and foremost, to set the edge, against the run. If the SOLB had any pass rush talent so much the better, but it was gravy. The Pass rush was the responsibility of the weakside OLB, in particular, and everyone in general, including the ILBs.

That setting the edge first, is not JT's style at all, and his opposition to doing it, got him shipped out of Miami.

AD MIGHT be able to do that SOLB job, with his bulk, but he is not the right dimensions to excel in doing so. He also has not seen that position in his entire time here with the Patriots. It also takes away his pass rush talents.

Who do the Pats have as their SOLB? Surprise! It is the guy who graduated from the DE-OLB transition school; and was ready to play the position, and it allowed the Pats to shift Vrabel to the weakside as a Pass rusher. It is 6-5 250+ pound, the size BB talks of for his OLBs and SOLBs, Pierre Woods.

Pierre held his own on promotion to starter at that position, was talked up by the Coaches, until he went down in his third start. If he had played the balance of the season, there would be only a discussion about augmenting the WOLB position, now. He had only one sack in 2.5 games but over the season that translates to 6 sacks/season, about the average over the past decade from that SOLB position.

Posters should recognize that the OLB starters are Woods at SOLB and AD/TBC at WOLB. If they add Taylor, it remains Woods at SOLB and AD/Taylor/TBC at WOLB. Little difference.

 

[sg14]

Doesn't look like too many people are going to argue with you, AzPatsFan, you may be on to something.

I think most people are expecting some sort of upgrade because last years defense was so poor on certain pass plays. Suppose JT were only used on obvious pass plays, I would think that would work.

I'm too lazy to check the stats for what is expected out of the SOLB position so I'll trust you on that,,

Agreed, I have heard nothing but praise for Wood from the coaching staff.

Funny, it just dawned on me that alot of us have said that BB picks up DE's later in the draft and converts them to OLB's, looks like he is doing right now in front of our eyes and don't see it.

 

[mgteich]

I agree that if JT is signed, Thomas would very likely move inside. I too think that Belichick is satisfied with Woods as a starter.

 

[patsfan-1982]

the fins did not draft any OLB and they passed on Barwin to the tuna is even better at drafting LB then BB willy mac teddy b ted johnson lawrence taylor demarcus ware all drafted by the tuna so that says one thing all of the LB in the draft dont fit the 3-4 or just not any good