Tate: the Chargers-style gamble

[patchick]

The Brandon Tate pick reminded me of this years-old thread on the contrasting ways the Pats & Chargers have sought out hidden draft bargains:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...d/13/55282-mining-gems-chargers-patriots.html

The idea at the time was that the Pats had a tendency to pick up players who hadn't been full-time starters due to talent logjams, while the Chargers took high-profile players who fell due to serious senior-year injuries. (Note that S.D. drafted the recently hospitalized Demetrius Byrd this year.)

Tate is a classic Chargers-type pick, a potentially significant weapon whom they can afford to wait for until he's healthy. Works for me.

 

[patsinthesnow]

I have a question for everyone saying IR him for 2009? Is it he cant play or it would be smart to make him rest a year?

I say we let him play as our kick returner for the year. He was great in college and it would boost the guy's morale who I think IRed for a year would not help.

 

[maverick4]

Also taking players who were caught taking drugs.

 

[TriplecHamp]

I have a question for everyone saying IR him for 2009? Is it he cant play or it would be smart to make him rest a year?

I say we let him play as our kick returner for the year. He was great in college and it would boost the guy's morale who I think IRed for a year would not help.

I say just be very careful with him, Im not sure he should play this year so I'm on the PUP list bandwagon. We are pretty set at WR and have plenty of possible KR's (Butler, Chung, Maroney, Slater) all have experience in the Return game. I'm just not sure we should risk playing him and ruining his career with a possible injury to that knee.

 

[spacecrime]

I have a question for everyone saying IR him for 2009? Is it he cant play or it would be smart to make him rest a year?

I say we let him play as our kick returner for the year. He was great in college and it would boost the guy's morale who I think IRed for a year would not help.

I don't think decisions on who to carry on the 53, who to cut, and who to put on IR should be based on not hurting the feelings of a rookie.

We have plenty or WRs. PUP him because of torn ACL. If week 6 we have suffered 3-4 WR injuries AND HE IS READY, activate him. If he isn't needed as a WR, IR him. Let him have a year to rehab, to attend position meeetings, work out, learn the playbook, and save the roster spot for someone who would otherwise be cut.

 

[TealSox]

I've been one of the guys that has said that the Pats will put him on IR, but that is based upon the assumption that he wouldn't be ready to contribute till halfway through the season. If he is ready to go by pre-season and is better than what the Pats have, in the way of returners, then toss him in there and run a few back.

Frankly, I saw the genius of his selection in that he isn't needed this year, already has a reason to go on IR, the roster spot is likely needed in other spots, and that he turns out to be the first Patriot pick for 2010. Nothing wrong with getting your picks in early, in a sense.

 

[AzPatsFan]

The Brandon Tate pick reminded me of this years-old thread on the contrasting ways the Pats & Chargers have sought out hidden draft bargains:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...d/13/55282-mining-gems-chargers-patriots.html

The idea at the time was that the Pats had a tendency to pick up players who hadn't been full-time starters due to talent logjams, while the Chargers took high-profile players who fell due to serious senior-year injuries. (Note that S.D. drafted the recently hospitalized Demetrius Byrd this year.)

Tate is a classic Chargers-type pick, a potentially significant weapon whom they can afford to wait for until he's healthy. Works for me.

And our very own Wesley Britt and Brandon Gorin if I remember correctly, too.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I say just be very careful with him, Im not sure he should play this year so I'm on the PUP list bandwagon. We are pretty set at WR and have plenty of possible KR's (Butler, Chung, Maroney, Slater) all have experience in the Return game. I'm just not sure we should risk playing him and ruining his career with a possible injury to that knee.

A player on IR is legitimatrely unable to attend practices and class sessions as I beleive, (but they do), but a Pupster can. Half a year or whatever on Pupp and then IR...

 

[DSHoyt]

If hes healthy and ready to go, why not let him return kicks. I sure don't like the idea of seeing Maroney running back kicks as was mentioned in a previous post. Hate to give any extra opportunities to Maroney and the possibility of getting hurt other than when hes at the RB position...

 

[JoeB]

Why not just put him on the PUP list and let him fully recover? Then he can come in in the middle of the season(while not taking up a roster spot).

He can spend all that time learning the playbook and from moss, welker, and galloway. They don't really need him right away... they have plenty of guys who can return punts and kicks between welker, butler, chung, faulk, slater, and maroney. Let the guy rest up and fully heal. I think the pats are going to have arguably the best recieving corps this year moss, welker, galloway, lewis. Galloway could be a #1 receiver on some teams.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

A player on IR is legitimatrely unable to attend practices and class sessions as I beleive, (but they do), but a Pupster can. Half a year or whatever on Pupp and then IR...

PUP isn't allowed to practice until after week six. IR and PUP may attend practice but not participate and may attend meetings.

 

[Sicilian]

If hes healthy and ready to go, why not let him return kicks. I sure don't like the idea of seeing Maroney running back kicks as was mentioned in a previous post. Hate to give any extra opportunities to Maroney and the possibility of getting hurt other than when hes at the RB position...

What does it matter where he gets hurt? If he adds value at both positions, then getting hurt at either one is still getting hurt adding to a football team.

Besides, I don't see a whole lot of returners getting hurt on kick returns, because they can see the hits coming. It's the blockers and coverage guys that tend to get hurt on ST.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

The Brandon Tate pick reminded me of this years-old thread on the contrasting ways the Pats & Chargers have sought out hidden draft bargains:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...d/13/55282-mining-gems-chargers-patriots.html

The idea at the time was that the Pats had a tendency to pick up players who hadn't been full-time starters due to talent logjams, while the Chargers took high-profile players who fell due to serious senior-year injuries. (Note that S.D. drafted the recently hospitalized Demetrius Byrd this year.)

Tate is a classic Chargers-type pick, a potentially significant weapon whom they can afford to wait for until he's healthy. Works for me.

You can argue NE and SD have drafting 'philosophies,' which has some merit, but a better question might be to ask which team subscribes to a scouting service, and which team is an independent?

I'd argue the NE "tendency" you describe is more a function of private scouting, NE relies on in-house trained scouts who are willing to look a little deeper on the depth chart. I don't know if SD is one of the independents or if they rely on a scouting service, but it's 'easier' to identify a falling star then it is to find one occluded by another star.

Coach Rehbein scouted Tommy and Rattay, he went to bat for Tommy; we've heard the story how NE's West Coast scout fought hard for Cassel - Pioli was talked into working him out and the scout insisted on drafting him against the risk of Tennesse scooping him as a UDFA; Vollmer was drafted two rounds before the experts had him graded - anyone doubt Coach Scar was lobbying after scouting him personally?

An Antonio Cromartie is easy to find, just as Tate was in this draft. NE's "tendency" is more accurately classified as a function of the scouting process, it just looks like there's a pattern.

 

[patchick]

And our very own Wesley Britt and Brandon Gorin if I remember correctly, too.

Ah, good one! I do recall that the Chargers drafted (then cut) an injured Britt...was Gorin injured too?

 

[VJCPatriot]

PUP isn't allowed to practice until after week six. IR and PUP may attend practice but not participate and may attend meetings.

Thanks for the clarification.

Here's a summary of IR I found that makes sense.

WikiAnswers - How does injured reserve work in the NFL

I really would rather see Tate play than see him out for the entire season. So I think PUP would make more sense than immediate IR. Once he's healthy, he can be activated and contribute on kick returns and such. If it looks like he won't be healthy for the year, they can just move him from PUP to IR, can't they?

 

[patchick]

You can argue NE and SD have drafting 'philosophies,' which has some merit, but a better question might be to ask which team subscribes to a scouting service, and which team is an independent?

I'd argue the NE "tendency" you describe is more a function of private scouting, NE relies on in-house trained scouts who are willing to look a little deeper on the depth chart. I don't know if SD is one of the independents or if they rely on a scouting service, but it's 'easier' to identify a falling star then it is to find one occluded by another star.

Coach Rehbein scouted Tommy and Rattay, he went to bat for Tommy; we've heard the story how NE's West Coast scout fought hard for Cassel - Pioli was talked into working him out and the scout insisted on drafting him against the risk of Tennesse scooping him as a UDFA; Vollmer was drafted two rounds before the experts had him graded - anyone doubt Coach Scar was lobbying after scouting him personally?

An Antonio Cromartie is easy to find, just as Tate was in this draft. NE's "tendency" is more accurately classified as a function of the scouting process, it just looks like there's a pattern.

I'm not so sure. What I see in the NE examples isn't so just the scouting process, it's the final decision process -- including a willingness to ignore pre-draft rankings and "common wisdom." Look at Cassel's case. At the end of USC's Pro Day a whole group of scouts stayed late to watch Cassel light it up. The Pats' scout called home to say "the cat's out of the bag, there's going to be a ton of competition for him as a UDFA now." So all of those teams knew about Cassel and wanted him. But only the Pats showed the imagination to actually spend a draft pick to secure the services of a kid who never started a game. (Remember the heat they took for that "arrogance"?)

 

[VJCPatriot]

I'm not so sure. What I see in the NE examples isn't so just the scouting process, it's the final decision process -- including a willingness to ignore pre-draft rankings and "common wisdom." Look at Cassel's case. At the end of USC's Pro Day a whole group of scouts stayed late to watch Cassel light it up. The Pats' scout called home to say "the cat's out of the bag, there's going to be a ton of competition for him as a UDFA now." So all of those teams knew about Cassel and wanted him. But only the Pats showed the imagination to actually spend a draft pick to secure the services of a kid who never started a game. (Remember the heat they took for that "arrogance"?)

They turned a 7th round pick into a budding NFL caliber starting QB and then turned him into Patrick Chung. Not bad return on investment, I'd say. The Pats have some pretty excellent scouts and have hit on a couple of late round QBs who have come to define their success in the salary cap era. Do well in the draft and reap the benefits.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm not so sure. What I see in the NE examples isn't so just the scouting process, it's the final decision process -- including a willingness to ignore pre-draft rankings and "common wisdom." Look at Cassel's case. At the end of USC's Pro Day a whole group of scouts stayed late to watch Cassel light it up. The Pats' scout called home to say "the cat's out of the bag, there's going to be a ton of competition for him as a UDFA now." So all of those teams knew about Cassel and wanted him. But only the Pats showed the imagination to actually spend a draft pick to secure the services of a kid who never started a game. (Remember the heat they took for that "arrogance"?)

That decision doesn't get made without that scout laying it on the line with his belief in Cassel. That's not a tendency, it's a trust.

 

[sg14]

Didn't I read in Vollmer's interview after the draft that the Pats did not show that much interest in him after his workout??

Scar must of liked what he saw, but doesn't want anyone else to recognize it, walks away without saying anything.

So the scout that is slapping the player on back wants the other scouts to think he taking him, when in reality he doesn't want him at all,,what a poker game,,

Coach Rehbein scouted Tommy and Rattay, he went to bat for Tommy; we've heard the story how NE's West Coast scout fought hard for Cassel - Pioli was talked into working him out and the scout insisted on drafting him against the risk of Tennesse scooping him as a UDFA; Vollmer was drafted two rounds before the experts had him graded - anyone doubt Coach Scar was lobbying after scouting him personally?

 

[MetalBleachers]

Didn't I read in Vollmer's interview after the draft that the Pats did not show that much interest in him after his workout??

Scar must of liked what he saw, but doesn't want anyone else to recognize it, walks away without saying anything.

So the scout that is slapping the player on back wants the other scouts to think he taking him, when in reality he doesn't want him at all,,what a poker game,,

It's interesting to me how teams and players get on opposite ends of the hype spectrum. If a player works out for the Pats, he's probably going to say so in an interview and explain how it went well - that makes him look more desirable as a prospect.

On the flip side, the more desirable he is, the more the Pats have to jockey for position to get him. So it makes sense that Dante would do the workout, get the info he needed, and get the heck out of there.

Now if Julian Edelman becomes anything more than a PS guy, I'll be impressed.