Some franchise players still unsigned - Perspective on Cassel & Vrabel

[MoLewisrocks]

WEEI interview, and claiming it would have been foolhardy is just opinion, which is part of my point.

I just went back and relistened to the clip and he never said he could have gotten more. Actually Glen asked him if he might have risked getting less had he waited and he said yes in terms of not being able to make the deals he did in the immediate aftermath of dealing Cassel to KC because he couldn't have done those due to cap constraints. He also reiterated several times there were no better offers to him on the table, that he had talked to the teams involved in the reported three way scenarios in the 24-48 hours preceeding and they had NO interest in trading for Cassel, and he went into detail about the difference in value between a player signed to a long term deal (which he said WE could not have done with Matt) and one on a one year franchise tender and said the only way to increase that value is to get that player signed to a longer term deal that suits all the parties and that is too complicated a scenario to expect to unfold in hours as sometimes those deals fall apart over days - especially in a rare 3 way deal with multiple moving parts. So it's pretty clear he felt he couldn't get a better deal by waiting because there was no direct interest in trading for Cassel, just some proposed what if scenarios from teams who had already passed on Matt straight up.

I know you were in the did Scott a solid camp, but as you know he also reiterated he did no such thing as his only loyalty is to this team...

Bill Belichick, HC, NEP on WEEI

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Umm, no, he didn't. He said there were other suitors, but they came to the table too late in the process.

That's not exactly true either. He said there was more like what he'd characterize as speculation (what if scenarios) but there was never any solid offer on the table to him, just proposals predicated on those teams being able to land Cutler as part of a three way...

 

[Deus Irae]

I just went back and relistened to the clip and he never said he could have gotten more. Actually Glen asked him if he might have risked getting less had he waited and he said yes in terms of not being able to make the deals he did in the immediate aftermath of dealing Cassel to KC because he couldn't have done those due to cap constraints. He also reiterated several times there were no better offers to him on the table, that he had talked to the teams involved in the reported three way scenarios in the 24-48 hours preceeding and they had NO interest in trading for Cassel, and he went into detail about the difference in value between a player signed to a long term deal (which he said WE could not have done with Matt) and one on a one year franchise tender and said the only way to increase that value is to get that player signed to a longer term deal that suits all the parties and that is too complicated a scenario to expect to unfold in hours as sometimes those deals fall apart over days - especially in a rare 3 way deal with multiple moving parts. So it's pretty clear he felt he couldn't get a better deal by waiting because there was no direct interest in trading for Cassel, just some proposed what if scenarios from teams who had already passed on Matt straight up.

I know you were in the did Scott a solid camp, but as you know he also reiterated he did no such thing as his only loyalty is to this team...

Bill Belichick, HC, NEP on WEEI

Pick it up at about 9 minutes in and listen for the next minute. It's pretty clear without being specifically stated. It's also re-hashed later in the interview.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Pick it up at about 9 minutes in and listen for the next minute. It's pretty clear without being specifically stated. It's also re-hashed later in the interview.

I think you got ear wax issues...or you're hearing things you want to hear... I just listened again and he said what I thought he said. He had no interest in waiting around to see if complicated three way scenarios (and he pointed out how few and far between those even were in his experience in the NFL) that were barely in the proposal stages might eventually work out over time while a number of FA opportunities (including re-signing some of our own) evaporated. He and Scott had a deal on Thursday, which is why Vrabel showed up in KC on Friday AM.

In revisiting this interview I have also become convinced that it was BB who wanted Matt to sign that tender so he could get him dealt before the first weekend of FA passed and he had to cut Vrabel loose in what would have been a tough locker room sell not to mention his landing somewhere he could still do us harm in 2009. Remember Pioli's odd public response to questions about Cassel at the Combine? He hasn't signed his tender...when we all assumed that was done the day after it was extended. Obviously it hadn't been. Got done that Sunday evening and by Monday Bill was on the horn with anyone who had inquired about his availability earlier (and been told he was not yet under contract ergo unavailable). Only the response Bill then got was NO INTEREST...with the exception of Pioli.

I have a theory about that, too. Recall the national media by and large predicting a blockbuster trade and contract for Cassel...while the local mediots who covered his career here (and wrote him off the day O'Connell was drafted) were scoffing at such hype and digging up stats like YAC by his WR's to underscore their belief he was potentially just a product of the system... It's no different that the case of BB who was painted as the dour and difficult Parcell's underling Kraft paid too much for given his performance in Cleveland whose players resented him (or would certainly grow to) and whose judgement and moral character was attacked by several presumably savvy long time local football writers right up to that second SB (and in a few cases even beyond the third...). Their inability to fully admit just how wrong they were began to give rise to questions about just what it was BB truly had to offer in Matt Cassel...

Do you recall how bitter a pill it was for some of them to swallow when the talk of Brady as Montana began to build?? LOL In this town where some vague notion that what your fellow mediot peers think of your objectivity has always mattered more than being right or fair or genuinely insightful, it is what it is.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think you got ear wax issues...or you're hearing things you want to hear... I just listened again and he said what I thought he said. He had no interest in waiting around to see if complicated three way scenarios (and he pointed out how few and far between those even were in his experience in the NFL) that were barely in the proposal stages might eventually work out over time while a number of FA opportunities (including re-signing some of our own) evaporated. He and Scott had a deal on Thursday, which is why Vrabel showed up in KC on Friday AM.

In revisiting this interview I have also become convinced that it was BB who wanted Matt to sign that tender so he could get him dealt before the first weekend of FA passed and he had to cut Vrabel loose in what would have been a tough locker room sell not to mention his landing somewhere he could still do us harm in 2009. Remember Pioli's odd public response to questions about Cassel at the Combine? He hasn't signed his tender...when we all assumed that was done the day after it was extended. Obviously it hadn't been. Got done that Sunday evening and by Monday Bill was on the horn with anyone who had inquired about his availability earlier (and been told he was not yet under contract ergo unavailable). Only the response Bill then got was NO INTEREST...with the exception of Pioli.

I have a theory about that, too. Recall the national media by and large predicting a blockbuster trade and contract for Cassel...while the local mediots who covered his career here (and wrote him off the day O'Connell was drafted) were scoffing at such hype and digging up stats like YAC by his WR's to underscore their belief he was potentially just a product of the system... It's no different that the case of BB who was painted as the dour and difficult Parcell's underling Kraft paid too much for given his performance in Cleveland whose players resented him (or would certainly grow to) and whose judgement and moral character was attacked by several presumably savvy long time local football writers right up to that second SB (and in a few cases even beyond the third...). Their inability to fully admit just how wrong they were began to give rise to questions about just what it was BB truly had to offer in Matt Cassel...

Do you recall how bitter a pill it was for some of them to swallow when the talk of Brady as Montana began to build?? LOL In this town where some vague notion that what your fellow mediot peers think of your objectivity has always mattered more than being right or fair or genuinely insightful, it is what it is.

I'm not going to re-hash the entire thing. I stand by what I said, and I don't have any horse in this race because I'm sort of in the middle of the arguing sides. It's clear that he could have waited. It's clear that no deal was firmly there for an immediate counter, and it's clear that a lot of people here don't understand how deadlines and semi-firm deadlines impact bargaining.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I'm not going to re-hash the entire thing. I stand by what I said, and I don't have any horse in this race because I'm sort of in the middle of the arguing sides. It's clear that he could have waited. It's clear that no deal was firmly there for an immediate counter, and it's clear that a lot of people here don't understand how deadlines and semi-firm deadlines impact bargaining.

That's just lame DI. I wish the transcripts at WEEI weren't incoherently auto-transcribed but they are...and I'm not gonna bother re-transcribing them just because you're being stubborn.

 

[Deus Irae]

That's just lame DI. I wish the transcripts at WEEI weren't incoherently auto-transcribed but they are...and I'm not gonna bother re-transcribing them just because you're being stubborn.

It's not lame and I'm not being stubborn. He talks about the other deals, noting that nothing firm had come to him at that point. Your claim dies at that point.

And that's where I'll let this end, because I'm not going to argue with you about this. It's become very testy here lately, and I'm not going to get into it with a poster that I have great respect for, when it's something this unimportant. I'll save that for the usual suspects who just can't seem to resist being wrong about 99% of the time.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

BB has pointed out that he might have gotten more if he'd waited. People arguing in defense of BB are doing precisely what they are accusing those on the other side of doing.

This is what you said. Andy asked you where he ever said that and you replied on WEEI. Only that is not remotely what he said on WEEI. You may have interpreted what he said to somehow indicate that. But that is not what you claimed. Sorry DI but given your propensity for factuality...

And again, the question he was responding to was might he have gotten LESS by waiting and his response was affirmative based on losing out on the FA signings he made in the immediate aftermath for what he characterized as proposed deals (contingent on a third party being interested and choosing to get involved) that might never get worked out and were only at best only prospectively discussed with him after a firm deal with KC that ultimately involved 2 players and gave him back $18M in immediate cap flexability on the first day of FA had already been reached and mutually agreed to.

It's not about respect, it's about consistency.

 

[JoeSixPat]

That's just lame DI. I wish the transcripts at WEEI weren't incoherently auto-transcribed but they are...and I'm not gonna bother re-transcribing them just because you're being stubborn.

I took Belichick's response regarding whether he could have gotten anything more for Cassel to be a rhetorical answer to a rhetorical question...

Belichick doesn't deal in absolutes - and would never say that "No - there was no way that I could ever have gotten anything more for Cassel if I had waited"

If people need to hear him say that they're going to wait a long time. So the common sense response to such a question after the fact is "Maybe - who knows?"

Belichick doesn't feel a need to explain the RISKS involved in waiting, nor did anyone ask him about the risks of waiting.

Now, a few weeks after the fact, it's becoming increasingly clear what things might look like had the Patriots risked waiting and losing out on the Chiefs offer, and I think more fans are beginning to realize why Vrabel was part of this deal as well.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I took Belichick's response regarding whether he could have gotten anything more for Cassel to be a rhetorical answer to a rhetorical question...

Belichick doesn't deal in absolutes - and would never say that "No - there was no way that I could ever have gotten anything more for Cassel if I had waited"

If people need to hear him say that they're going to wait a long time. So the common sense response to such a question after the fact is "Maybe - who knows?"

Belichick doesn't feel a need to explain the RISKS involved in waiting, nor did anyone ask him about the risks of waiting.

Now, a few weeks after the fact, it's becoming increasingly clear what things might look like had the Patriots risked waiting and losing out on the Chiefs offer, and I think more fans are beginning to realize why Vrabel was part of this deal as well.

Actually that was exactly what Ordway asked him...and what he explained starting just before the 9 minute mark in the interview. Prior to that Ordway had begun the segment simply mentioning that some people were expecting more...to which BB responded by explaining the difference between trading a player on a one year deal under a franchise tag vs. a player under contract for a longer term and more favorable cost as well as the vagaries of allowing an agent to be the conduit to a trade between two teams - something he said he would NEVER do.

 

[Deus Irae]

This is what you said. Andy asked you where he ever said that and you replied on WEEI. Only that is not remotely what he said on WEEI. You may have interpreted what he said to somehow indicate that. But that is not what you claimed. Sorry DI but given your propensity for factuality...

And again, the question he was responding to was might he have gotten LESS by waiting and his response was affirmative based on losing out on the FA signings he made in the immediate aftermath for what he characterized as proposed deals (contingent on a third party being interested and choosing to get involved) that might never get worked out and were only at best only prospectively discussed with him after a firm deal with KC that ultimately involved 2 players and gave him back $18M in immediate cap flexability on the first day of FA had already been reached and mutually agreed to.

It's not about respect, it's about consistency.

No, it's about respect. BB knew about the other proposed 'deals'. Therefore he knew that it was possible that he could get more in trade. That's plain to anyone who pays the slightest bit of attention. Now, let this die, please.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

No, it's about respect. BB knew about the other proposed 'deals'. Therefore he knew that it was possible that he could get more in trade. That's plain to anyone who pays the slightest bit of attention. Now, let this die, please.

Did he ever say he knew about deals that offered more? No, he said there were what he would characterize as proposals that were in themselves not yet even firm offers. And they might not ever be. And when asked later if he had in fact been offered a first and more by Denver he said that never happened. He actually characterized a lot of the speculation as post trade posturing.

People seem to forget the real deal was always for Cutler, not Cassel. The same teams and more were contacted by BB on Monday and Tuesday of that same week and they ALL responded that they had NO interest in trading for him. Oddly I think that remains the case. Denver might have wanted him last week, but that was six weeks too late and only due to the fact that Cutler himself embarked on a journey to shoot his way out of town AFTER the reports of the proposed three way leaked out on Saturday afternoon when the paperwork had already been filed with the league. Still it took long enough for that to play out that anything BB might have gotten from Denver for Cassel in the way of higher or multiple picks pales in comparison to the value of players signed over the last 6 weeks... And who is to say Denver would not still have still ultimately decided to take the offer of a first and third AND Orton rather than pay more than #34 for Cassel...

Bill is all about VALUE. That's what MORE has to entail. He got more value in #34 plus the ability to sign FA than he would have gotten from a higher pick or multiple picks (in a draft where he already has 11 and may unload some for better value) absent the ability to sign almost anyone in the last 6 weeks. And he made it pretty clear that was always his intention.

But you seem determined to contend he said he knew he could get more and just decided not to because he likes Pioli and apparently arbitrarily just didn't care about maximizing value...LOL He got as much as he could for a player he could only control via a tag that had the potential to cripple him in FA if his team were not relieved of it at the outset of FA.

 

[Deus Irae]

Did he ever say he knew about deals that offered more? No, he said there were what he would characterize as proposals that were in themselves not yet even firm offers. And they might not ever be. And when asked later if he had in fact been offered a first and more by Denver he said that never happened. He actually characterized a lot of the speculation as post trade posturing.

People seem to forget the real deal was always for Cutler, not Cassel. The same teams and more were contacted by BB on Monday and Tuesday of that same week and they ALL responded that they had NO interest in trading for him. Oddly I think that remains the case. Denver might have wanted him last week, but that was six weeks too late and only due to the fact that Cutler himself embarked on a journey to shoot his way out of town AFTER the reports of the proposed three way leaked out on Saturday afternoon when the paperwork had already been filed with the league. Still it took long enough for that to play out that anything BB might have gotten from Denver for Cassel in the way of higher or multiple picks pales in comparison to the value of players signed over the last 6 weeks... And who is to say Denver would not still have still ultimately decided to take the offer of a first and third AND Orton rather than pay more than #34 for Cassel...

Bill is all about VALUE. That's what MORE has to entail. He got more value in #34 plus the ability to sign FA than he would have gotten from a higher pick or multiple picks (in a draft where he already has 11 and may unload some for better value) absent the ability to sign almost anyone in the last 6 weeks. And he made it pretty clear that was always his intention.

But you seem determined to contend he said he knew he could get more and just decided not to because he likes Pioli and apparently arbitrarily just didn't care about maximizing value...LOL He got as much as he could for a player he could only control via a tag that had the potential to cripple him in FA if his team were not relieved of it at the outset of FA.

You're wrong. Again. Drop it.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Did he ever say he knew about deals that offered more? No, he said there were what he would characterize as proposals that were in themselves not yet even firm offers. And they might not ever be. And when asked later if he had in fact been offered a first and more by Denver he said that never happened. He actually characterized a lot of the speculation as post trade posturing.

People seem to forget the real deal was always for Cutler, not Cassel. The same teams and more were contacted by BB on Monday and Tuesday of that same week and they ALL responded that they had NO interest in trading for him. Oddly I think that remains the case. Denver might have wanted him last week, but that was six weeks too late and only due to the fact that Cutler himself embarked on a journey to shoot his way out of town AFTER the reports of the proposed three way leaked out on Saturday afternoon when the paperwork had already been filed with the league. Still it took long enough for that to play out that anything BB might have gotten from Denver for Cassel in the way of higher or multiple picks pales in comparison to the value of players signed over the last 6 weeks... And who is to say Denver would not still have still ultimately decided to take the offer of a first and third AND Orton rather than pay more than #34 for Cassel...

Bill is all about VALUE. That's what MORE has to entail. He got more value in #34 plus the ability to sign FA than he would have gotten from a higher pick or multiple picks (in a draft where he already has 11 and may unload some for better value) absent the ability to sign almost anyone in the last 6 weeks. And he made it pretty clear that was always his intention.

I agree. BB did a risk/return value assessment that looks better to me now than it did then given his subsequent irreplaceable FA signings had 'what if' 3 ways gone awry. But then that's why I am paid $0 for my football thoughts. Good move BB.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You're wrong. Again. Drop it.

No, you mistated something as fact that wasn't corroberated by the audio tape of the same source you cited. Then you engaged in one of the activities you usually go berserk over. You moved the goalposts from what he said to what you determined he meant. There were no better deals out there, just vague proposals centered around just three teams who each had told him they had no interest in Cassel apart from those. Denver is on record saying they listened to the proposals but chose not to seriously entertain them and never even took them as far as the ownership level. So as Bill surmised they were nothing but smoke and mirrors. And as fate would have it neither team landed Cutler once he actually was made available. So Bill didn't wait 6 weeks for nothing better than #34 and cap flexibility for Cassel.

Get over yourself.

 

[Deus Irae]

No, you mistated something as fact that wasn't corroberated by the audio tape of the same source you cited. Then you engaged in one of the activities you usually go berserk over. You moved the goalposts from what he said to what you determined he meant. There were no better deals out there, just vague proposals centered around just three teams who each had told him they had no interest in Cassel apart from those. Denver is on record saying they listened to the proposals but chose not to seriously entertain them and never even took them as far as the ownership level. So as Bill surmised they were nothing but smoke and mirrors. And as fate would have it neither team landed Cutler once he actually was made available. So Bill didn't wait 6 weeks for nothing better than #34 and cap flexibility for Cassel.

Get over yourself.

Ok, since you insist on being an ass today.....

What's the maximum contract length a team can get for a player drafted at the bottom of round one, and what's that maximum for a player at #34?

When you figure out the difference, maybe you'll start to realize that I know what I'm saying and you, apparently, don't. Since you don't want to bother being respectful, I won't either.

Now, run along and try using facts instead of speculations next time.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Ok, since you insist on being an ass today.....

What's the maximum contract length a team can get for a player drafted at the bottom of round one, and what's that maximum for a player at #34?

When you figure out the difference, maybe you'll start to realize that I know what I'm saying and you, apparently, don't. Since you don't want to bother being respectful, I won't either.

Now, run along and try using facts instead of speculations next time.

5 years vs. 4 years. He was never offered a pick above #34 though per the man himself. There were rumors Detroit was offering the #33 contingent on their being able to trade Cassel to Denver... Other sources indicated the picks from Detroit and Tampa would have gone to Denver with it up to them to work something else out with NE. It never came to that because Denver wasn't prepared to pull the trigger unless Josh is a bold faced liar.

What's the value of $18M in cap space when all the FA you were interested in signing or re-signing have signed elsewhere?

I hear it takes one to know one DI, and you've got a lot more experience at it than I.

 

[Deus Irae]

5 years vs. 4 years. He was never offered a pick above #34 though per the man himself. There were rumors Detroit was offering the #33 contingent on their being able to trade Cassel to Denver... Other sources indicated the picks from Detroit and Tampa would have gone to Denver with it up to them to work something else out with NE. It never came to that because Denver wasn't prepared to pull the trigger unless Josh is a bold faced liar.

What's the value of $18M in cap space when all the FA you were interested in signing or re-signing have signed elsewhere?

I hear it takes one to know one DI, and you've got a lot more experience at it than I.

Ummmm..... 5 years vs. 4 years. That would be the Value you were talking about. Shockingly, it doesn't fall to your side of the argument.

End of story.

As for the "it takes one to know one" stupidity, I kept trying to get you to drop this nonsense but you refused. Now, are you done with the nonsense?

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

I agree. Call me a homer, but I just don't see how many people can sit there and scrutinize and 2nd guess BB after all he's proven. When it comes to assessing players, building a football team from top to bottom and simply winning there's not many, if any in his league. granted the guys made some and will undoubtedly make some more mistakes, but I'll trust he knows what he's doing. Hopefully, he can turn that 2nd round pick into solid starter for the defense either at LB or in the secondary it really doesn't matter.

Well, I don't know if the 3 rings and undefeated season is a product of BB's genious or Scott Pioli being the greatest talent evaluator in the history of football.

Fact is, the Patriots might have just got robbed by the same guy that has been behind every single brilliant move that BB has ever been credited for.

If KC has a better record than the Patriots over the next three seasons than NEP, then SP deserves the HOF more than BB.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Ummmm..... 5 years vs. 4 years. That would be the Value you were talking about. Shockingly, it doesn't fall to your side of the argument.

End of story.

As for the "it takes one to know one" stupidity, I kept trying to get you to drop this nonsense but you refused. Now, are you done with the nonsense?

I really think you're losing it. He wasn't offered a first by anyone. Supposedly Detroit was offering #33 pending they could even orchestrate the 3 way. Tampa was offering their picks to Denver who was going to have to work compensation out with NE if they wanted to deal. Why would they give up a first - that would have amounted to trading Cutler for Cassel and a 3rd...

And even if he had been signing a player drafted a few spots higher for a year more than one drafted at #34 it does nothing to mitigate losing out on half a dozen players you wanted and needed and signed already this year because you didn't think waiting was was going to net you more than they were worth...