One litmus test for the Pats' interest in a Peppers deal

[Fencer]

Per Reiss and Miguel, the Pats pushed $750,000 of Moss's cap charge from 2009 to 2010. But there are around $2 million more of cap charges they could have pushed and didn't.

It's hard to see how they could afford Peppers without nearly maxing out everything that can be pushed from 2009 to 2010 (mainly Brady, Moss, and Light).

I don't know the CBA rules as to whether they can take two bites at the Moss apple the same off-season. But if they can't, I think their intentions are fairly clear.

 

[DaBruinz]

Per Reiss and Miguel, the Pats pushed $750,000 of Moss's cap charge from 2009 to 2010. But there are around $2 million more of cap charges they could have pushed and didn't.

It's hard to see how they could afford Peppers without nearly maxing out everything that can be pushed from 2009 to 2010 (mainly Brady, Moss, and Light).

I don't know the CBA rules as to whether they can take two bites at the Moss apple the same off-season. But if they can't, I think their intentions are fairly clear.

If I remember correctly, and Miguel is more of the authority on this, a team can only "restructure" the contract of a player once in any 365 day period. And I point to Richard Seymour signed his contract extension a couple years ago. The Pats and he had to wait until August to sign it because of a restructuring that they had done on Seymour's contract the year before.

 

[Synovia]

If I remember correctly, and Miguel is more of the authority on this, a team can only "restructure" the contract of a player once in any 365 day period.

I'm pretty sure thats correct.


They restructured Moss while Cassel was still here, so they'd have room to work on some things. This was done before Peppers was even being talked about.

 

[Pats726]

All good points...and Holley is backing AS on this...no way...ChrisP as well with a nice interview...

 

[solman]

Per Reiss and Miguel, the Pats pushed $750,000 of Moss's cap charge from 2009 to 2010. But there are around $2 million more of cap charges they could have pushed and didn't.

It's hard to see how they could afford Peppers without nearly maxing out everything that can be pushed from 2009 to 2010 (mainly Brady, Moss, and Light).

I don't know the CBA rules as to whether they can take two bites at the Moss apple the same off-season. But if they can't, I think their intentions are fairly clear.

You are absolutely right. IF the Patriots wanted to sign Peppers at the beginning of free agency, they wouldn't have done Moss's restructure this way.

But if the Patriots were getting ready to sign Peppers at the beginning of free agency, he would probably already being signed.

So I do not agree that this is a valid litmus test.

 

[Pats726]

If this is going to happen...and I really doubt it..there is ANOTHER move to be made to free cap space...(can they do it with smaller moves??)

 

[Synovia]

If this is going to happen...and I really doubt it..there is ANOTHER move to be made to free cap space...(can they do it with smaller moves??)

Yeah, I don't think its happening, but I don't think Moss's restructuring had anything to do with it. Moss was restructured to try to make space for Bodden, who was visiting in the next couple of days.

 

[Spiral]

It appears that the only deal for Peppers that could work cap-wise would be a straight-up trade: Seymour for Peppers.

 

[solman]

It appears that the only deal for Peppers that could work cap-wise would be a straight-up trade: Seymour for Peppers.

Seymour really doesn't free up much cap in a trade. Miguel has him freeing up $3.4M.

 

[RobertWeathers]

It appears that the only deal for Peppers that could work cap-wise would be a straight-up trade: Seymour for Peppers.

I believe this will happen. Its clean and the move clears cap room for Peppers at the same time. They want Wilfork to stay. They have Ty Warren already making big $$. They have Green locked up for good $$s. They have Wright locked up for reasonable $$. They can fortify the D-line via the draft or pick up a solid vet (ala Bobby Hamilton) on the street.

It just makes too much sense.

 

[Synovia]

It just makes too much sense.

Giving up an elite DE to get a player who would be changing positions?

 

[Rob0729]

The Pats could make room. Both Brady and Light could have salary converted to bonuses. Their cap numbers and salaries are actually lower in 2010 and could avoid the 30% rule. Wilfork getting extended could free up money.

If the Pats wanted to trade for Peppers (not sure they will), his 2009 cap number wouldn't as high as many think. Look at Adalius Thomas' contract. He made signficantly less than what Peppers would, but not by tons. Thomas' cap hit the first year was only $3.4 million. So Peppers would probably be about $4.5-5 million of cap hits this year. That is managable if the Pats want to do it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I believe this will happen. Its clean and the move clears cap room for Peppers at the same time. They want Wilfork to stay. They have Ty Warren already making big $$. They have Green locked up for good $$s. They have Wright locked up for reasonable $$. They can fortify the D-line via the draft or pick up a solid vet (ala Bobby Hamilton) on the street.

It just makes too much sense.

It makes absolutely no sense to weaken one position to strengthen another. Peppers and Seymour both want the same kind of money long term - double digit AAV. Seymour can be here this season healthy and performing in a contract year without impacting the cap. He can be re-signed to a front loaded deal or tagged and traded in the uncapped 2010 season, so he still represents tremendous value.

Peppers will play this season in Carolina because he isn't walking away from $16M.

They have 4 day 1 picks with which to bolster the pass rushing ability of this team, not to mention Crable coming back as a sophomore.

 

[Sicilian]

I believe this will happen. Its clean and the move clears cap room for Peppers at the same time. They want Wilfork to stay. They have Ty Warren already making big $$. They have Green locked up for good $$s. They have Wright locked up for reasonable $$. They can fortify the D-line via the draft or pick up a solid vet (ala Bobby Hamilton) on the street.

It just makes too much sense.

You'd be plugging one hole (OLB... maybe, we have no idea how good Peppers will be playing there) by creating another one on the D-Line. I would rather have:

- Seymour on the line, who we know is good there and knows the system inside and out.
- With Woods/TBC playing OLB while we groom Crable/A new draft pick

than:

- Peppers at OLB, who has questionable work ethic, has never played OLB and has never played in a 3-4 (full time) much less OUR 3-4.
- With Green/Wright, who both aren't great against the run, playing DE while we groom a draft pick there.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Giving up an elite DE to get a player who would be changing positions?

No question Seymour is still a top-5 DE/DT. I'm looking at this move from a financial & logistical perspective. But consider if the bullets below are true..


-Your scouting tells you Peppers can make the transition to the "elephant" position in a 3-4 D and would translate into a 12-15 sack guy in this D.

-Based on team finances, signability, etc. you need to choose between Wilfork and Seymour b/c you can't have both (maybe they can???)

-You project another servicable DE to be available (draft or trade, vet cut before camp) that will give you 5+ sacks and be solid vs the run.

My opinion only...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The Pats could make room. Both Brady and Light could have salary converted to bonuses. Their cap numbers and salaries are actually lower in 2010 and could avoid the 30% rule. Wilfork getting extended could free up money.

If the Pats wanted to trade for Peppers (not sure they will), his 2009 cap number wouldn't as high as many think. Look at Adalius Thomas' contract. He made signficantly less than what Peppers would, but not by tons. Thomas' cap hit the first year was only $3.4 million. So Peppers would probably be about $4.5-5 million of cap hits this year. That is managable if the Pats want to do it.

Not enough. Wilfork extended would only add money. AD was signed under a fully functional CBA. You can't engineer artificailly low cap hits in the final capped year because of the 30% rule. Not for Peppers and not for Wilfork. Each are looking for $8-10M AAV deals. Best case scenario you're looking at $6-8M cap hits. Wilfork's would add another $4M or so all by itself. So we'd need to have AT LEAST $10-12M in cap space to sign both, and at least several million just to sign Peppers.

 

[Synovia]

No question Seymour is still a top-5 DE/DT. I'm looking at this move from a financial & logistical perspective. But consider if the bullets below are true..


A)-Your scouting tells you Peppers can make the transition to the "elephant" position in a 3-4 D and would translate into a 12-15 sack guy in this D.

B)-Based on team finances, signability, etc. you need to choose between Wilfork and Seymour b/c you can't have both (maybe they can???)

C)-You project another servicable DE to be available (draft or trade, vet cut before camp) that will give you 5+ sacks and be solid vs the run.

My opinion only...

Condition B is my biggest issue. Why would you be able to afford Wilfork and Peppers, but not Wilfork and Seymour. Peppers isn't going to be cheap.

Also, the idea that Peppers gets 12-15 sacks in our defense is a huge leap.


Again, this is giving up an elite player, for a player who has probably a 50/50 shot of being an elite player at a new position. Theres no upside here: You're not getting younger. You're not getting cheaper. You're just taking a ton of risk to move a hole.

 

[Sicilian]

Condition B is my biggest issue. Why would you be able to afford Wilfork and Peppers, but not Wilfork and Seymour. Peppers isn't going to be cheap.

Also, the idea that Peppers gets 12-15 sacks in our defense is a huge leap.


Again, this is giving up an elite player, for a player who has probably a 50/50 shot of being an elite player at a new position. Theres no upside here: You're not getting younger. You're not getting cheaper. You're just taking a ton of risk to move a hole.

Precisely. It's entirely possible that Peppers, on an open market, would actually be paid significantly MORE than either Wilfork or Seymour, because he has the sexier numbers. With more teams playing a 3-4, maybe not, but at the very least we're talking equal value here.

 

[Synovia]

With more teams playing a 3-4, maybe not, but at the very least we're talking equal value here.

No, its worse than that. Seymour is only making $3.7m worth of salary. The 6M bonus money is sunk cost.


At a bare minimum, Peppers is going to cost you 8M this year. (most likely, hes 12 a year, not 8). Theres no way that this is a wash.

 

[DaBruinz]

It appears that the only deal for Peppers that could work cap-wise would be a straight-up trade: Seymour for Peppers.

Why do you say that? There are numerous ways to free up cap space and the Pats are 5+ million under the cap. Peppers could, theoretically, be signed to a deal with a cap hit in the 3-4 million range for the 1st couple of year.. And then spike up the way Stallworth's did.