Draft-Quality over Quanity

[Ring 6]

Ive recently seen people say that the pats should trade down from their first pick or 1st second pick, for more picks in later rounds, due to either salary cap or just cause to stock more picks. Im sorry but i have to disagree. First off 2nd round pick money does not kill your cap and third with the recent trend of our drafts we dont need more players to hide on IR or cut. Basically the last few years has shown the pats have got virtually nothing from the later rounds. I would like to see them trade 1 pick for next year and use the other picks to move up in different rounds.


2008

Jerod Mayo - STUD
Terrence Wheatley-Playing ok until IR
Shawn Crable-IR (possibly fake IR to avoid cutting him)
Kevin O'Connell -?
Jonathan Wilhite -OK
Matthew Slater-Special Teamer
Bo Ruud -IR

2007

Brandon Meriweather-Lead the team in INT's last year, will only get better
Kareem Brown-Cut
Clint Oldenburg-Cut
Justin Rogers-Cut
Mike Richardson-IR/IR Probably get Cut
Justise Hairston-Cut
Corey Hilliard-Cut
Oscar Lua-Cut
Mike Elgin-Cut

Laurence Maroney -Jury is Out, think he will breakout this year
Chad Jackson -Cut
David Thomas -Non Factor (dissapointed in him, thought he would be better)
Garrett Mills -Cut
Stephen Gostkowski -STUD
Ryan O'Callaghan -Backup
Jeremy Mincey -Cut
Dan Stevenson-Cut
Le Kevin Smith-Backup
Willie Andrews -Cut

It is not common for us to trade down to get extra late picks.
What we do is trade down to get more resources to later trade up (or into next year) with.
I can't remember many times where we traded a 2nd for a 3rd and 6th then used both.

BB uses the picks to get to the parts of the draft he wants to be in.
Usually he will trade down when the player(s) he wants will still be available later. Thereby he gets his player plus the other picks. He will trade up when he sees a run coming on players he has targetted, or more than expected are taken sooner than expected.

I don't think its correct to say that the plan would be to trade down just to get extra 6th and 7ths who will not make the team, thats never been the objective.

 

[Ring 6]

Completely agree, and thats why the draft is so funny.
Bad teams need lots of decent to good players. Good teams need great players, or they wont make the roster. In my oppinion, teams at the top of the league should be looking to trade up, because thats the only way they're going to get talent that will "push them over the top" whereas bad teams should be looking for cost effective good players.

Good teams draft to STAY GOOD not to expect a rookie to 'get them over the top'.
The best organizations draft for the future, not today. The best team in the NFL has good starters, but at least a dozen guys will make the team that a 3rd-5th rounder should be able to beat out, all things equal.
That is life with a salary cap. No matter how good you are at building the bottom or your roster 'draftable' players almost always are talented enough to make your team, although many just aren't NFL ready by the middle to end of camp.

 

[JMarr]

You might be correct about the draft (I don't know enough to say,) but you are definitely wrong about our current roster. With a few more moves still to make, we are stacked!

Sorry to disagree. We're stacked in terms of quantity but not exactly quality. If we want to win remove alot of doubt about how far we can go, we're missing at least one key piece still, and I have a feeling that BB still has a big move or two in the works either through FA, the draft or a trade. Right now the Steelers are sitting there licking their chops.

It makes sense to bring in an upgrade at OT if possible since it's critical to keep Brady pretty much untouched. And the LB corps we have is probably the worst we've had since BB took over. That's not acceptable, nor is bringing in hit or miss college prospects to develop while you rely on Guyton and Woods as starting LBs.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ive recently seen people say that the pats should trade down from their first pick or 1st second pick, for more picks in later rounds, due to either salary cap or just cause to stock more picks. Im sorry but i have to disagree. First off 2nd round pick money does not kill your cap and third with the recent trend of our drafts we dont need more players to hide on IR or cut. Basically the last few years has shown the pats have got virtually nothing from the later rounds. I would like to see them trade 1 pick for next year and use the other picks to move up in different rounds.


2008

Jerod Mayo - STUD
Terrence Wheatley-Playing ok until IR
Shawn Crable-IR (possibly fake IR to avoid cutting him)
Kevin O'Connell -?
Jonathan Wilhite -OK
Matthew Slater-Special Teamer
Bo Ruud -IR

2007

Brandon Meriweather-Lead the team in INT's last year, will only get better
Kareem Brown-Cut Made team out of camp. Was cut because of injuries in the defensive backfield and having numerous other D-line ahead of him.
Clint Oldenburg-Cut - Went to practice squad first.
Justin Rogers-Cut Cut because they wanted to stash him on the practice squad. Cowboys picked him up and he's been a Special teams stud for them.
Mike Richardson-IR/IR Probably get Cut Was IRed his during his first pre-season after opening many eyes in Training camp. Was on the Practice Squad last year and was promoted when the injuries in the backfield started.
Justise Hairston-Cut Was put on the IR first. Then an injury settlement was reached.
Corey Hilliard-Cut Went to practice squad first.
Oscar Lua-Cut - Was IRed first. Was cut when he didn't pass his physical.
Mike Elgin-Cut

Laurence Maroney -Jury is Out, think he will breakout this year
Chad Jackson -Cut
David Thomas -Non Factor (dissapointed in him, thought he would be better)
Garrett Mills -Cut Cut in an attempt to get him onto the Practice squad
Stephen Gostkowski -STUD
Ryan O'Callaghan -Backup
Jeremy Mincey -Cut
Dan Stevenson-Cut - Went to the practice squad first.
Le Kevin Smith-Backup
Willie Andrews -Cut Made the team and was a special teams ace for two year. Was cut after he ran into legal trouble

You, like many others who nay say the Pats drafting in later rounds, love to leave out things that need to be considered when looking at the previous 3 drafts. Like, for instance, that the Pats had 60 something players signed before the draft in 2007. So, the likelihood of a lot of the 2 day picks making the team was slim. People also ignore that 4 of the 8 second day picks were comp picks that the Pats couldn't trade. And people forget that the Pats DID try and trade the other picks but no one wanted to trade for them.

 

[DaBruinz]

With our current roster and a draft consisting of developmental players, I put our odds of winning the SB this year at way less than 50/50.

HUH? With the additions of Lewis, Springs, Bodden, Hodel, and Baker, not to mention the return of Sanders, Hochstein, Yates and Tully Banta-Cain and the growth of guys like Mayo, Redd, Guyton, Wheatley, Wilhite, and Meriweather, this team should do extremely well.

As for the draft, they aren't ALL developmental plays. There are players who can come in and contribute immediately. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

Free agency JUST STARTED about 2 weeks ago.. there is still a little under 6 months for this team to truly take shap. If you are this cynical now, why do you even bother following the team since there is no way that they can do right.

 

[JMarr]

HUH? With the additions of Lewis, Springs, Bodden, Hodel, and Baker, not to mention the return of Sanders, Hochstein, Yates and Tully Banta-Cain and the growth of guys like Mayo, Redd, Guyton, Wheatley, Wilhite, and Meriweather, this team should do extremely well.

As for the draft, they aren't ALL developmental plays. There are players who can come in and contribute immediately. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

Free agency JUST STARTED about 2 weeks ago.. there is still a little under 6 months for this team to truly take shap. If you are this cynical now, why do you even bother following the team since there is no way that they can do right.

What I was trying to say is that we we don't need a lot of mid-round developmental players at this point. We need an immediate high impact guy (especially at LB, and maybe OT) and may need to trade up to get one if we can't do it through FA.

 

[DaBruinz]

Sorry to disagree. We're stacked in terms of quantity but not exactly quality. If we want to win remove alot of doubt about how far we can go, we're missing at least one key piece still, and I have a feeling that BB still has a big move or two in the works either through FA, the draft or a trade. Right now the Steelers are sitting there licking their chops.

It makes sense to bring in an upgrade at OT if possible since it's critical to keep Brady pretty much untouched. And the LB corps we have is probably the worst we've had since BB took over. That's not acceptable, nor is bringing in hit or miss college prospects to develop while you rely on Guyton and Woods as starting LBs.

First off, it must be really nice to post your knee jerk reactions without actually providing specifics. Like naming the particular position instead of throwing out a generalization.

1) Which OT position needs the upgrade?
1a) Whom are you proposing to sign to replace the person in question 1.
1b) If you are considering a FA OT, where do you propose the Pats get the money to pay said free agent?

2) The LB situation of the 2005 roster was signicantly worse than the one they have now. Who do you propose they get to improve the situation?
2a) Where do you propose they get the money to pay for that person?

3) What is this one KEY piece that the Pats are missing? What happens if that person gets injured? Are you really saying that ONE injury ends the teams SB hopes? There is only one person that applies to and its Brady..

4) Do you understand that ALL draft picks are hit and miss? ALL of them. From round 1 to round 7.

5) Do you understand that the times when the Pats had their best past rush was when they could send any of their 4 LBs? Last year, they had a leash on Mayo and didn't rush him. And, though they tried to bring Bruschi, it didn't work because he doesn't have the speed or strength to get by the guards. Vrabel was playing hurt most, if not all, of the season.

 

[DaBruinz]

What I was trying to say is that we we don't need a lot of mid-round developmental players at this point. We need an immediate high impact guy (especially at LB, and maybe OT) and may need to trade up to get one if we can't do it through FA.

First off, your thinking is way too short term. WAY too short term. You are thinking the "here and now" and not the bigger picture, which includes the next 4 years.

The Pats have 4 picks in the first 60. Those guys are going to be immediate, impact players.

As for your generalizations, you need to be more specific. After you've done that, go do some research on the players available in the draft. I think that you'll find that there is ONE true 3-4 OLB. That is Clint Simtin. The problem is that many people see him sliding INSIDE to SILB. Of the ILBs, Maualuga is considered, by many, to no longer be a 3 down LBer. And many question his coverage ability. Clay Matthews is intriguing because he played all the LB positions at USC. Brian Cushing is more of a WILB than a SILB. And many think he doesn't have the fram to put on more weight. James Laurinitus is a binky of some people, but he likes to free lance too much. On a team like the Patriots where every player has a job and a specific area of the field to cover, Laurinitus would cause big plays to occur.

I'm sorry, but your explanations, thus far, have been futile and much to generalized, imho. And I don't believe you've done enough homework on this team and the 2009 draft.

 

[JMarr]

First off, it must be really nice to post your knee jerk reactions without actually providing specifics. Like naming the particular position instead of throwing out a generalization.

1) Which OT position needs the upgrade?
1a) Whom are you proposing to sign to replace the person in question 1.
1b) If you are considering a FA OT, where do you propose the Pats get the money to pay said free agent?

2) The LB situation of the 2005 roster was signicantly worse than the one they have now. Who do you propose they get to improve the situation?
2a) Where do you propose they get the money to pay for that person?

3) What is this one KEY piece that the Pats are missing? What happens if that person gets injured? Are you really saying that ONE injury ends the teams SB hopes? There is only one person that applies to and its Brady..

4) Do you understand that ALL draft picks are hit and miss? ALL of them. From round 1 to round 7.

5) Do you understand that the times when the Pats had their best past rush was when they could send any of their 4 LBs? Last year, they had a leash on Mayo and didn't rush him. And, though they tried to bring Bruschi, it didn't work because he doesn't have the speed or strength to get by the guards. Vrabel was playing hurt most, if not all, of the season.

1. RT--I didn't say this was priority #1 but if Andre Smith, Oher or someone else BB feels can step in almost right away slides far enough, then you consider it.

2. I disagree and LB is priority #1. I'd prefer someone better than Guyton/Brushchi at SILB and we have nothing but JAGs OLB's on the other side of AD. ILB: Maualuga works for me. OLB: Everette Brown, or trade the farm, including Maroney, Watson, Guyton, and/or Wheatley + draft picks to our good friend Pioli if Curry is sitting at #3 and maybe move AD inside. Or do the same for a guy like Suggs or Dansby.

3. Pass rusher. If he gets injured, it is what it is.

4. Some first round picks are much safer than others.

5. That's why I've been hyping Mauluaga. Better pass rush from his spot, plus monster run stuffer, freeing Mayo to do more blitzing.

I simply feel we need to think more short-term this year and are carrying more picks than we need.

 

[patchick]

What I was trying to say is that we we don't need a lot of mid-round developmental players at this point. We need an immediate high impact guy (especially at LB, and maybe OT) and may need to trade up to get one if we can't do it through FA.

This is a curious statement. It suggests that the Patriots have a weak roster for 2009, but are positively loaded for 2010 & 11. That's an awfully tough case to make.

Or perhaps what you're saying that the Pats should say "to heck with the future" and focus solely on 2009?

If you're talking about concentrating value in the top 100 picks of the draft, they've already done that. They have a whopping six of the first 100 picks. Sure, they could move around, move up, etc. But they've set themselves up to pick up a ton of long-term impact talent in a very deep draft. That will be critically important...NEXT YEAR.

 

[Revman]

Totally agree with you. Pat's drafts have been weak over 5 years. One or 2 real players from most drafts. Value-economics are tied together. However if Pats could trade #34 and a pick to Panthers for Peppers-I would do it. Thus paying for a proven starter in the league. deleting some of the extra picks that have been over rated the past few drafts.

 

[JMarr]

This is a curious statement. It suggests that the Patriots have a weak roster for 2009, but are positively loaded for 2010 & 11. That's an awfully tough case to make.

Or perhaps what you're saying that the Pats should say "to heck with the future" and focus solely on 2009?

If you're talking about concentrating value in the top 100 picks of the draft, they've already done that. They have a whopping six of the first 100 picks. Sure, they could move around, move up, etc. But they've set themselves up to pick up a ton of long-term impact talent in a very deep draft. That will be critically important...NEXT YEAR.

That's what I'm saying. Do you really feel that we necessarily would be mortgaging the future by trading away some of our 2009 picks or spending big $ on the right FA? I understand that we need $ for Wilfork, Mankins and Sey, but even if one of them ends up taking more money elsewhere it wouldn't be the end of the world. I also think we already drafted alot of quality defensive players in 2008 who will be playing significant roles in 2010 and beyond.

 

[DaBruinz]

1. RT--I didn't say this was priority #1 but if Andre Smith, Oher or someone else BB feels can step in almost right away slides far enough, then you consider it.

You really need to pay more attention because Andre Smith just slid to the lower end of the 2nd round and may slip farther because of his horrible pro-day.

2. I disagree and LB is priority #1. I'd prefer someone better than Guyton/Brushchi at SILB and we have nothing but JAGs OLB's on the other side of AD. ILB: Maualuga works for me. OLB: Everette Brown, or trade the farm, including Maroney, Watson, Guyton, and/or Wheatley + draft picks to our good friend Pioli if Curry is sitting at #3. Or do the same for a guy like Suggs or Dansby.

You can disagree all you want. The facts don't support you. The LB corp of Vrabel, Beisel, Brown, and Colvin was horrible.

Maualuga works for you? Glad we have BB.

Everette Brown? He's a conversion project.

Trading up to #3 for Curry is just fantasy on your part. Try living in reality.

Suggs is franchised. And the Ravens are working on a long term deal for him.
Dansby is also franchised. And the Cards are working on a long term deal.

I don't believe that Suggs or Dansby are on the trading block.

3. Pass rusher. If he gets injured, it is what it is.

Pass Rusher? That's not a position. And its not the name of a player. Again, a generalization by you. The Pats don't need someone who can ONLY rush the Passer. For an OLB, they need someone who can set the edge on the run and do an adequate (not spectacular) job of dropping into coverage. For the ILB position, they need a SILB who can rush the passer, not get eaten up by guards on the run and who can also cover the middle of the field at times, shadowing the RB.

4. Some first round picks are much safer than others.

Who, for instance?

5. That's why I've been hyping Mauluaga. Better pass rush from his spot, plus monster run stuffer, freeing Mayo to do more blitzing.

Maualuga doesn't bring much in terms of a pass rush. Especially not with his horrible running. His 10 yard split was only a 1.62. Not to mention that he pulled his hamstring. Also, what about the character flags? Here's a guy who got into numerous problems while at USC with drinking and fighting.

I simply feel we need to think more short-term this year and are carrying more picks than we need.

If you are thinking short term this year then you are being foolish. This is the year that more emphasis needs to be put on LONG TERM because of the issues with the CBA and the potential for next year to be an uncapped year.

Also, I noticed at on 1 and 2, you ignored the money issue. Something that you can't do.