The BB drafts, summarized

[JackBauer]

I think you need to differentiate between "solid starter" and "so-so starter."

Not every guy you draft is going to be either Pro Bowl caliber or mediocre.

 

[JackBauer]

Steelers since 2005:

Heath Miller
Bryant McFadden
Trai Essex
Fred Gibson
Rian Wallace
Chris Kemoeatu
Shaun Nua
Noah Herron

Santonio Holmes
Anthony Smith
Willie Reid
Willie Colon
Orien Harris
Omar Jacobs
Charles Davis
Marvin Philip
Cedric Humes

Lawrence Timmons
Lamar Woodley
Matt Spaeth
Daniel Sepulveda
Ryan McBean
Cameron Stephenson
William Gay
Dallas Baker

Jeff Otah
Rashard Mendenhall
Limas Sweed
Bruce Davis
Tony Hills
Dennis Dixon
Mike Humpal
Ryan Mundy

Did the Steelers actually draft Otah? Not sure why he's on there, since he plays for the Panthers.

 

[Deus Irae]

Did the Steelers actually draft Otah? Not sure why he's on there, since he plays for the Panthers.

I just copied down all the names on NFL.com...

NFL Draft History: Full Draft - by Team

Otah doesn't belong there, because it was just Mendenhall in round 1 last year. Thanks for catching that.... I'll try to edit, if it's not too late.


Follow up: I was able to put a disclaimer in the list. Thanks again.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Bosh and Drivel. What happened with the 2007 second rounder? What happened with the 2007 4th rounder?

Why Gee whiz... Surprise. A HOF Probowl receiver and a another probowl slot receiver. And no washouts. Sorry about that.:banned:

 

[JackBauer]

Oh, for crying out loud. What the hell do you think happens with other teams?

The Steelers draft well, no doubt. But take 2006, for example:

1 25 Santonio Holmes WR Ohio State
3 83 Anthony Smith DB Syracuse
3 95 Willie Reid WR Florida State
4 131 Willie Colon T Hofstra
4 133 Orien Harris DT Miami (Fla.)
5 164 Omar Jacobs QB Bowling Green State
5 167 Charles Davis TE Purdue
6 201 Marvin Philip C California
7 240 Cedric Humes RB Virginia Tech

A very good but not elite WR and a crappy OT.

Early returns from their 2008 draft? Not promising.

1 23 Rashard Mendenhall RB Illinois
2 53 Limas Sweed WR Texas
3 88 Bruce Davis DE UCLA
4 130 Tony Hills T Texas
5 156 Dennis Dixon QB Oregon
6 188 Mike Humpal OLB Iowa
6 194 Ryan Mundy FS West Virginia

Here's Colts 2008:

2 59 Mike Pollak T Arizona State
3 93 Philip Wheeler OLB Georgia Tech
4 127 Jacob Tamme TE Kentucky
5 161 Marcus Howard LB Georgia
6 196 Tom Santi TE Virginia
6 201 Steve Justice C Wake Forest
6 202 Mike Hart RB Michigan
6 205 Pierre Garcon WR Mount Union
7 236 Jamey Richard OL Buffalo

Chargers 2008:

1 27 Antoine Cason CB Arizona
3 69 Jacob Hester FB Louisiana State
5 166 Marcus Thomas RB Texas-El Paso
6 192 DeJuan Tribble CB Boston College
7 234 Corey Clark T Texas A&M

Chargers 2007:

1 30 Craig Davis WR Louisiana State
2 37 Eric Weddle SAF Utah
3 96 Anthony Waters LB Clemson
4 129 Scott Chandler TE Iowa
5 172 Legedu Naanee WR Boise State
7 240 Brandon Siler LB Florida
Paul Oliver CB Georgia

Giants 2002:

1 14 Jeremy Shockey TE Miami (Fla.)
2 46 Tim Carter WR Auburn
3 78 Jeff Hatch T Pennsylvania
5 152 Nick Greisen LB Wisconsin
6 188 Wesly Mallard LB Oregon
7 226 Daryl Jones WR Miami (Fla.)
7 245 Quincy Monk LB North Carolina

 

[AzPatsFan]

NFL Draft History: Full Draft - by Team has a convenient draft history.

2000 Brady, a couple of short-term starters or contributors, and a bunch of washouts

2001 One borderline HOFer, one borderline Pro Bowler, one borderline starter, and a bunch of washouts

2002 Three starters -- two of whom have minor places in the record books -- a starter-equivalent DL, a backup QB, and a washout

2003 Three Pro Bowlers or borderline Pro Bowlers, another starter

2004 A Pro Bowler, a so-so starter, and a lot of washouts

2005 A Pro Bowler, 3 so-so starters, and Cassel

2006 A Pro Bowl kicker, 2 borderline starters, and a couple of minor contributors

2007 A so-so starter, a contributor, and a bunch of washouts

2008 A DROY and a bunch of remains-to-be-seens

And this is bad? Selecting 11 pro bowlers and two certain Hall of Famers in 7 years?

I'd say SPECTACULAR!

 

[Fencer]

Oh geez. I wasn't prepared for people to be such jerks.

This gets so very repetitive, so I'm not breaking down all of them. Here are two examples, though.....

That's a mercy

2005 didn't produce "A Pro Bowler, 3 so-so starters, and Cassel". It Produced 5 starters in 7 picks.

Mankins -- Pro Bowler
Sanders -- so-so starter
Hobbs -- so-so starter
Cassel -- Cassel, who was not a starter except when the guy ahead of him got injured
Kaczur -- so-so starter
Claridge -- washout
Stokes -- washout

2007 didn't produce "A so-so starter, a contributor, and a bunch of washouts".

That is a false statement, in that it by design directly contradicts my true statement.

It produced a group of players which contributed hugely to a 16-0 season.

False, unless you include trades.

Meriweather -- so-so starter
Welker (via traded pick(s)) -- not drafted
Moss (via traded pick(s)) -- not drafted
Brown -- washout
Oldenburg -- washout
Rogers -- washout
Richardson -- contributor
Hairston -- washout
Hilliard -- washout
Lua-- washout
Elgin -- washout

The drafts have been among the very best in the NFL.

As a group, absolutely. But not every year taken alone.

 

[Fencer]

Yeah dooooooooooooooooood your forgetting Moss and Welker or are they still just so-so guys in your book

They weren't drafted, doooooooooooooooooooooood.

 

[Fencer]

I wouldn't credit the Patriots with being among the best in the

NFL at drafting players. The Steelers, Colts, Chargers, and Giants

are the elite drafting teams. The Patriots had very good drafts in

2002, 2003, and 2005. In the other years, the first player or two

was generally a very good player but the others drafted were not

very good.

2000 is a counter-example to that.

More generally: Having a superb hit rate on your most valuable picks makes you a drafting success, especially when you add a few gems in later rounds.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Steelers draft well, no doubt. But take 2006, for example:



A very good but not elite WR and a crappy OT.

Early returns from their 2008 draft? Not promising.



Here's Colts 2008:



Chargers 2008:



Chargers 2007:



Giants 2002:

Yes.... people here have really lost their minds about what constitutes terrible/bad/good/great in various areas of football. The Patriots consistently draft at the bottom of drafts and are still among the top 5 teams drafting, and people put down the drafts as poor or mediocre.

Every player who doesn't pan out is a bust, no matter what route got him to New England. A 7th round pick that doesn't make it is a bust. A low level free agent who doesn't make the team is a disaster. A player traded for that doesn't make the grade is a sign of the apocalypse. The team isn't allowed to be imperfect, because too many of the fans have allowed the team's success to spoil them.

 

[Fencer]

I think you are skewing it a bit.

1.) First, Benjamin Watson is not a so-so starter. You can label him a disapointment based on his position, but he is a pretty good TE. Not great by any stretch, but pretty good. My take: Good blocker, substandard hands, superior speed and heart. A TE who doesn't catch passes well is no more than so-so.
2.) I agree with the poster that Meriweather is better than a so-so starter. I may have been a little harsh there.
3.) Your analysis fails to point out that the 2006 draft only had one pick in the first three rounds and only 3 picks in the first five. The latter two of those washed off the team faster than mid-round picks usually do. It's rare for a high fourth-round pick not to make it through his first season. They had six picks in the sixth and seventh rounds and even on a bad team, sixth and seventh round picks are far from slam dunks.
4.) So far the 2008 draft has been a pretty good success. Wheatley looked to be coming on strong before he broke his wrist. O'Connell apears to be the #2 QB on the team which is what he was drafted for. Wilhite has been a solid contributor. Slater was a solid contributor on special teams which is good for a rookie 5th round pick. Ruud is still on the team which is good for a sixth rounder. I agree w/ all except Butterfingers Slater.
5.) Le Kevin Smith has been a homerun as a sixth round pick since he stepped in and started last year and played fairly well. Yep. That's a contributor in my book.
6.) You don't take into the fact that earlier in the decade, the Pats needed players to step in right away and start. Hence why some guys in later rounders got to play pretty quickly. Sometimes the difference between a later round pick being a solid starter or a guy who washes out of the league in a few years is more about opportunity than talent. OK, there's some degree of difficulty involved. But except for the flood of comp picks, they had their chance to deal with that. Anyhow, I don't think I implied condemnation of failed late picks.

The other point I left out for simplicity is that the Pats have done nicely with UDFAs and with young guys who washed out quickly from the teams that drafted them.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes.... people here have really lost their minds about what constitutes terrible/bad/good/great in various areas of football. The Patriots consistently draft at the bottom of drafts and are still among the top 5 teams drafting, and people put down the drafts as poor or mediocre.

Every player who doesn't pan out is a bust, no matter what route got him to New England. A 7th round pick that doesn't make it is a bust. A low level free agent who doesn't make the team is a disaster. A player traded for that doesn't make the grade is a sign of the apocalypse. The team isn't allowed to be imperfect, because too many of the fans have allowed the team's success to spoil them.

Oh geez. I wasn't prepared for people to be such jerks.

Originally Posted by Deus Irae View Post
This gets so very repetitive, so I'm not breaking down all of them. Here are two examples, though.....

That's a mercy

2005 didn't produce "A Pro Bowler, 3 so-so starters, and Cassel". It Produced 5 starters in 7 picks.

Mankins -- Pro Bowler
Sanders -- so-so starter
Hobbs -- so-so starter
Cassel -- Cassel, who was not a starter except when the guy ahead of him got injured
Kaczur -- so-so starter
Claridge -- washout
Stokes -- washout

2007 didn't produce "A so-so starter, a contributor, and a bunch of washouts".

That is a false statement, in that it by design directly contradicts my true statement.

It produced a group of players which contributed hugely to a 16-0 season.

False, unless you include trades.

Meriweather -- so-so starter
Welker (via traded pick(s)) -- not drafted
Moss (via traded pick(s)) -- not drafted
Brown -- washout
Oldenburg -- washout
Rogers -- washout
Richardson -- contributor
Hairston -- washout
Hilliard -- washout
Lua
Elgin

The drafts have been among the very best in the NFL.

As a group, absolutely. But not every year taken alone.

Even with the evidence in front of you, you make this follow up. Thanks for making my point for me.

 

[Fencer]

I think you need to differentiate between "solid starter" and "so-so starter."

Not every guy you draft is going to be either Pro Bowl caliber or mediocre.

"Borderline Pro Bowler" captures most of that.

Solid starters like Light often sniff the Pro Bowl once in a while.

 

[Fencer]

And this is bad? Selecting 11 pro bowlers and two certain Hall of Famers in 7 years?

I'd say SPECTACULAR!

Who said or implied it was bad?

 

[Fencer]

Even with the evidence in front of you, you make this follow up. Thanks for making my point for me.

Right. I gave an accurate summary in almost all respects, the main exception being that I was too harsh on Meriweather.

You, on the other hand, so frothed at the mouth you posted things that were factually incorrect.

Perhaps you should back away from the forum for an hour or two, until you calm down.

 

[Rob0729]

Oh geez. I wasn't prepared for people to be such jerks.

Are you seriously going to label the seventh round selection Matt Cassel "who was not a starter except when the guy ahead of him got injured"? Are you serious? A seventh round pick who stepped in when The Franchise went down and led the team to 11 wins and then netted the team the following offseason the 34th pick in the draft? I would say that Matt Cassel was one of the best picks of Belichick era based on value and return on investment. If you factor his draft position and what he gave the Pats, I would argue that Cassel was second to only Brady's pick. I give Belichick and Pioli an A+++ for the Cassel selection.

Now if Cassel was a first or second round selection, it may be a different story. But anyone who doesn't admit that Cassel was anything short of a great pick doesn't deserve to enter the discussion.

 

[Fencer]

Are you seriously going to label the seventh round selection Matt Cassel "who was not a starter except when the guy ahead of him got injured"? Are you serious? A seventh round pick who stepped in when The Franchise went down and led the team to 11 wins and then netted the team the following offseason the 34th pick in the draft? I would say that Matt Cassel was one of the best picks of Belichick era based on value and return on investment. If you factor his draft position and what he gave the Pats, I would argue that Cassel was second to only Brady's pick. I give Belichick and Pioli an A+++ for the Cassel selection.

Now if Cassel was a first or second round selection, it may be a different story. But anyone who doesn't admit that Cassel was anything short of a great pick doesn't deserve to enter the discussion.

Please note that I didn't categorize him -- I just said "Cassel". Similarly, I didn't categorize "Brady". On different levels, they're both cases too special to fit into buckets that also accomodate many other players.

It so happens that Cassel was taken in a draft that would rate as a success even if he hadn't been taken.

 

[Deus Irae]

Right. I gave an accurate summary in almost all respects, the main exception being that I was too harsh on Meriweather.

You, on the other hand, so frothed at the mouth you posted things that were factually incorrect.

Perhaps you should back away from the forum for an hour or two, until you calm down.

Try not to be an idiot. I didn't froth at the mouth at all. You posted a terrible opening post and I fleshed part of it out. You then insulted me.

Now, either man up or run along and let the adults post.

 

[Patsrock]

They weren't drafted, doooooooooooooooooooooood.

So do you only judge a draft by the players drafted? I don't! All the moves should be considered when judging a draft.

 

[Fencer]

Try not to be an idiot. I didn't froth at the mouth at all. You posted a terrible opening post and I fleshed part of it out. You then insulted me.

Now, either man up or run along and let the adults post.

Everything (almost) I said was correct. You misread it, argued with things I didn't say (I think that's the crux of the matter), and got so heated you said some factually incorrect things.

Hence my suggestion you cool down a bit.

Unfortunately, you just have chosen to continue to spew the -- inaccurate -- insults.

Can't you just apologize and back off?