Could we see a different kind of draft this time?

[Patdown93]

In Pioli's presser after becoming GM of the Chiefs he said Belichick and himself would never take a player that they both didn't agree on in the draft. Meaning that if Pioli didn't like someone, but BB did, they wouldn't take him. Same thing the other way around.

I remember on NFL Network Mayock had said BB really liked Manny Lawson. I believe we had the opportunity to draft him during that draft but didn't.

I'm not sure if it's cause of the Patriots board, but does anyone think we could see BB taking players we wouldn't normally be taking?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm not sure if it's cause of the Patriots board, but does anyone think we could see BB taking players we wouldn't normally be taking?

Your question makes no sense as written, but I'm guessing you wish to ask if the Pats will be doing a poorer job in the draft without Pioli?

I expect BB and Caserio will develop the same level of trust as BB and Pioli. Caserio has worked in Player Personnel long enough for BB to know if he follows the Belichick formula. Recall that Belichick taught Ozzie Newsome and Scott Pioli how to do the job, I'm sure he made sure Caserio was up to speed too.

 

[mcsully]

Your question makes no sense as written, .

I understood it perfectly

and the answer is ... we'll find out shortly.. But I would think the Pats are built with checks and balances.. Even though Pioli is gone, someone else will fit his role in the organization..


Regarding Manny Lawson.. I recall a passage in Patriot Reign where M. Holley states some players fit better in specific schemes. Lawson is pretty much a bust but who knows what his future would have been if he was with the Pats..

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Look I find it hard to believe that BB said I want this guy and he didn't take him because Pioli objected. I'm sure that there were players that BB was thinking about, and after listening to Pioli's imput, they decided to pass. But alot of drafting is predicting who the guys ahead of you will draft and making sure that you are not outpositioned by a trade.

The Pats had Palamoulu high on their board, and the Steelers got to him first. It happens, sometimes you have to take the BPA when the guy you really want is gone.

OF all the first round picks over the last 8 years, the only two that pretty much everyone saw coming was Mayo and Wilfork. Wilfork was a top ten player, and nobody thought that he was going to be around at #21. The Pats needed a nose tackle, and Wilfork fell to #21, and I think all of Patsland knew what was coming when the commish went to the podium. Ditto for last year, Michael Holly basically got on the radio and gaurenteed it. BB has a history of filling his absolute needs via free agency, and then getting his starter in the first round of the draft.

So to predict who the Pats will take this year in the first round, first I think you have to agree on what position(s) the Pats need a starter the most?

I think that we can assume that the Pats will pick a defensive player, (unless of course someone too good to pass up drops to the Pats)( cough, cough, KNOWSHON, cough, cough)).

I think that if Mays had come out, the Pats would have gone for him. I'm guessing pass rushing OLB, but of course, I've been wrong (pretty much everytime) before.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

I understood it perfectly

and the answer is ... we'll find out shortly.. But I would think the Pats are built with checks and balances.. Even though Pioli is gone, someone else will fit his role in the organization..


Regarding Manny Lawson.. I recall a passage in Patriot Reign where M. Holley states some players fit better in specific schemes. Lawson is pretty much a bust but who knows what his future would have been if he was with the Pats..

I do remember that about Manny Lawson in that great book. Also when reading the book it showed that BB runs the show. He has help from everyone on this staff but BB runs the draft (with his good friend Pioli advising with Ernie Adams). I have to agree I am sure the Pat's were prepared for these two departures (McDanials and Pioli) they had to have been grooming people in advance.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Why are people still sore about missing out on Manny Lawson?

His stat line the past 3 years - 16 games 2.5 sacks 2 gams 0 sacks 14 games 3.0 sacks.

Vrabel's stat line the past 3 years - 16 games 4.5 sacks 16 games 12.5 sacks 16 games 4.0 sacks

It would be nice to draft someone who can get double digit sacks... but Lawson hasn't been that guy!

 

[makoute]

Why are people still sore about missing out on Manny Lawson?

His stat line the past 3 years - 16 games 2.5 sacks 2 gams 0 sacks 14 games 3.0 sacks.

Vrabel's stat line the past 3 years - 16 games 4.5 sacks 16 games 12.5 sacks 16 games 4.0 sacks

It would be nice to draft someone who can get double digit sacks... but Lawson hasn't been that guy!

I don't think this thread really has anything to do with Manny Lawson.

 

[mayoclinic]

The Pats had Palamoulu high on their board, and the Steelers got to him first. It happens, sometimes you have to take the BPA when the guy you really want is gone.

OF all the first round picks over the last 8 years, the only two that pretty much everyone saw coming was Mayo and Wilfork. Wilfork was a top ten player, and nobody thought that he was going to be around at #21. The Pats needed a nose tackle, and Wilfork fell to #21, and I think all of Patsland knew what was coming when the commish went to the podium. Ditto for last year, Michael Holly basically got on the radio and gaurenteed it. BB has a history of filling his absolute needs via free agency, and then getting his starter in the first round of the draft.

In 2003 the Pats had 2 first round picks, #14 and #19. We traded up with Chicago one pick to #13 to snag Ty Warren after there had been a run on DTs (Robertson #4, Jonathan Sullivan #6, Kevin Williams #8, Jimmy Kennedy #12). Hard to argue with that pick, though Polamalu would have been nice. I could see where we might have taken Polamalu at #19, but the Steelers took him higher than expected at #16, so we traded the Pick to Baltimore (who took Kyle Boller) for #36 (which we used on Eugene Wilson; Nnamdi Asomugha went #31 and Rashean Mathis went #39) and their 2004 first round pick, which turned out to be the #21 that we used on Wilfork. So we did pretty well out of it.

We will always miss out on great players. I posted a thread on who we might have taken on the draft thread a few days ago. It's tantalizing to see who we might have taken. Karlos Dansby went #33 to Arizona when we took Wilfork at #32; I wanted him badly. But I also wanted Manny Lawson at #21 in 2006, and he's done nothing. Overall, we've done better than pretty much anyone (except possibly Pittsburgh, San Diego and the Giants) at picking players who fit our system.

 

[DaBruinz]

I do remember that about Manny Lawson in that great book. Also when reading the book it showed that BB runs the show. He has help from everyone on this staff but BB runs the draft (with his good friend Pioli advising with Ernie Adams). I have to agree I am sure the Pat's were prepared for these two departures (McDanials and Pioli) they had to have been grooming people in advance.

Just a point of information. Patriot Reign was published in October 2005. Manny Lawson wasn't drafted until April 2006. So, there is no way you could have read about comments on Lawson in that book. There were comments on guys like Vilma and Wilfork in there. And there were comments about how you couldn't predict how a player would do in another system.

Now, while BB runs the draft, Pioli, Ernie Adams, and the scouting staff are the ones who provide the information prior to putting the draft board together. BB and Pioli worked together on that. And, it was that process in which if they didn't agree on players that the player wasn't on the list. And it was in free agency that if they didn't agree, they didn't go for the player.

 

[VJCPatriot]

In 2003 the Pats had 2 first round picks, #14 and #19. We traded up with Chicago one pick to #13 to snag Ty Warren after there had been a run on DTs (Robertson #4, Jonathan Sullivan #6, Kevin Williams #8, Jimmy Kennedy #12). Hard to argue with that pick, though Polamalu would have been nice. I could see where we might have taken Polamalu at #19, but the Steelers took him higher than expected at #16, so we traded the Pick to Baltimore (who took Kyle Boller) for #36 (which we used on Eugene Wilson; Nnamdi Asomugha went #31 and Rashean Mathis went #39) and their 2004 first round pick, which turned out to be the #21 that we used on Wilfork. So we did pretty well out of it.

We will always miss out on great players. I posted a thread on who we might have taken on the draft thread a few days ago. It's tantalizing to see who we might have taken. Karlos Dansby went #33 to Arizona when we took Wilfork at #32; I wanted him badly. But I also wanted Manny Lawson at #21 in 2006, and he's done nothing. Overall, we've done better than pretty much anyone (except possibly Pittsburgh, San Diego and the Giants) at picking players who fit our system.

Would have been nice to get Asomugha with pick #19 but we did get a pretty sweet deal from the Ravens. Question is, who did we get with the pick we got from them? Answer - Vince Wilfork. So would you rather have Eugene Wilson + Wilfork or Asomugha. For our defense? It's gotta be the cornerstone NT.

 

[ALP]

I understood it perfectly

and the answer is ... we'll find out shortly.. But I would think the Pats are built with checks and balances.. Even though Pioli is gone, someone else will fit his role in the organization..


Regarding Manny Lawson.. I recall a passage in Patriot Reign where M. Holley states some players fit better in specific schemes. Lawson is pretty much a bust but who knows what his future would have been if he was with the Pats..

excellent answer...

and to be honest, ill take BB's word over Pioli's...

 

[Jimke]

Just a point of information. Patriot Reign was published in October 2005. Manny Lawson wasn't drafted until April 2006. So, there is no way you could have read about comments on Lawson in that book. There were comments on guys like Vilma and Wilfork in there. And there were comments about how you couldn't predict how a player would do in another system.

Now, while BB runs the draft, Pioli, Ernie Adams, and the scouting staff are the ones who provide the information prior to putting the draft board together. BB and Pioli worked together on that. And, it was that process in which if they didn't agree on players that the player wasn't on the list. And it was in free agency that if they didn't agree, they didn't go for the player.

The difference in the Belichick/Pioli era and the Carrol/Grier era is

that the head coach, co-ordinators, positional coaches, and front

office join the scouts at the various college pro days.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Just a point of information. Patriot Reign was published in October 2005. Manny Lawson wasn't drafted until April 2006. So, there is no way you could have read about comments on Lawson in that book. There were comments on guys like Vilma and Wilfork in there. And there were comments about how you couldn't predict how a player would do in another system.

Now, while BB runs the draft, Pioli, Ernie Adams, and the scouting staff are the ones who provide the information prior to putting the draft board together. BB and Pioli worked together on that. And, it was that process in which if they didn't agree on players that the player wasn't on the list. And it was in free agency that if they didn't agree, they didn't go for the player.

It took me a while to find the book, but you are absolutely correct. I think I was thinking of Boss Bailey or EJ Henderson (who I love). I love the chapter which show's how they breakdown the recruits.

"When the scouts are asked to put a player into a specific box, they have eight groupings from which to choose."

1. Starter
2. Circumstantial Starter (a first year NFL starter whose production has been restricted by some circumstance, which may include an NCAA rules problem, problems with an agent, or personal or family conflict)
3. Make It + (A player who is not expected to start in his first season but is expected to contribute in year one and eventually develop into a starter
4. Dirty Starter (could start, but something about the player is restrictive (maybe not enough speed or athletic ability)
5. Make It - (a back up who won't win or lose a game for you.
6. Free Agent (not expected to make the team but could rise to the Make it + level with time in a practice squad)
7. Pats Reject - a reject by Patriot standards, but could land somewhere else in the NFL
8. Reject - Does not belong in the NFL

 

[RayClay]

In Pioli's presser after becoming GM of the Chiefs he said Belichick and himself would never take a player that they both didn't agree on in the draft. Meaning that if Pioli didn't like someone, but BB did, they wouldn't take him. Same thing the other way around.

I remember on NFL Network Mayock had said BB really liked Manny Lawson. I believe we had the opportunity to draft him during that draft but didn't.

I'm not sure if it's cause of the Patriots board, but does anyone think we could see BB taking players we wouldn't normally be taking?

I think you misinterpreted what Pioli said. He said they worked together closely and agreed on almost all the picks. If BB strongly wanted someone, that would be the pick. If Pioli strongly wanted someone, he'd try to convince BB. If he couldn't, see rule 1.

 

[mayoclinic]

Would have been nice to get Asomugha with pick #19 but we did get a pretty sweet deal from the Ravens. Question is, who did we get with the pick we got from them? Answer - Vince Wilfork. So would you rather have Eugene Wilson + Wilfork or Asomugha. For our defense? It's gotta be the cornerstone NT.

Same thing in 2007. We took Meriweather at #24. Jon Beason was a rumored option at #28, but Carolina took him at #25. He would have taken David Harris, Lamar Woodley, or Joe Staley at #28, all of whom are good players and solved needs, but we traded the pick to SD and ended up getting Jerod Mayo and Randy Moss out of the two picks we got in return. Which would you rather have?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Same thing in 2007. We took Meriweather at #24. Jon Beason was a rumored option at #28, but Carolina took him at #25. He would have taken David Harris, Lamar Woodley, or Joe Staley at #28, all of whom are good players and solved needs, but we traded the pick to SD and ended up getting Jerod Mayo and Randy Moss out of the two picks we got in return. Which would you rather have?

Rose colored glasses looking at other team's drafts, isn't that what we all want?

 

[mgteich]

I think that Caserio will have less influence on the draft decisions than Pioli did.

 

[patchick]

I think that Caserio will have less influence on the draft decisions than Pioli did.

Year one at least, I think that's inevitable. But I wouldn't expect any obvious changes in draft philosophy, since Pioli has made it clear that his objective was always to identify the kind of players BB wanted for his system.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Year one at least, I think that's inevitable. But I wouldn't expect any obvious changes in draft philosophy, since Pioli has made it clear that his objective was always to identify the kind of players BB wanted for his system.

I think people are two pessimistic about this - it's not like BB has never developed personnel people before. Caserio has been groomed for this the same way Ozzie Newsome and Scott Pioli were groomed. I have no doubt BB will give Caserio the same level of input he would give Pioli, and I can't see him waving off Caserio if Nick felt strongly one way or another about a prospect.

 

[WhiZa]

Why are people still sore about missing out on Manny Lawson?

His stat line the past 3 years - 16 games 2.5 sacks 2 gams 0 sacks 14 games 3.0 sacks.

Vrabel's stat line the past 3 years - 16 games 4.5 sacks 16 games 12.5 sacks 16 games 4.0 sacks

It would be nice to draft someone who can get double digit sacks... but Lawson hasn't been that guy!

You really should be comparing Lawson to Maroney. Who would of contributed more.