Denver will switch to a 3-4, meaning more competition for Patriots-type players

[Deus Irae]

We hear Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels’ announcement that the team would transition to a 3-4 defense was welcome news to Broncos DEs Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder, who were the team’s top two picks in the 2007 draft. Moss and Crowder struggled to get playing time last season, and both looked extremely disappointing in limited duty. Moss is expected to become a “stand-up” defender in the new scheme, where he should be a better fit, and Crowder appears more suited for a role as a 3-4 end.

The Way We Hear It - NFL pro football rumors and insider news from Pro Football Weekly

Obviously we'll have to adjust the personnel some," said Jim Goodman, who runs the Broncos' player personnel department. "(McDaniels) may want to do a hybrid type thing where he goes to a 4-3 some."

Switch to 3-4? Not so quick - The Denver Post

The pool of players is going to get picked clean.

 

[IcyPatriot]

The old version of the 3-4 will be copied ... Bill will stay ahead of them I am sure of it. I still think at some point he will have a system of 3-3-2 instead of a 3-4. Of course I have been thinking this for 3 years now and it still has not happened.

 

[ALP]

wuts a 3-3-2?

 

[Rob0729]

The Jets could switch back to the 4-3 or even the 4-6 if Rex Ryan is hired as head coach. The Broncos and Jets could negate themselves.

Besides, if McDaniels learned from Belichick, the switch from 4-3 to 3-4 will not be overnight and could take 2 years or longer to complete. Remember the Pats primary defense in the 2001 season was the 4-3 because they struggled with the 3-4 early in the season. The Pats didn't switch to the 3-4 as their base until the 2003 season.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

wuts a 3-3-2?

Good Question. I was getting in to the post when that one stumped me

 

[billdog3484]

they still have to draft the right players. easier said than done.

 

[Deus Irae]

they still have to draft the right players. easier said than done.

Yes, but where once not that long ago the only teams running the 3-4 were New England and Pittsburgh, we could now see up to eight teams running it:

Denver
New England
San Diego
NYJ
Cleveland
KC
Miami
Baltimore

Given the lack of 3-4 teams in college, that will really put a strain on the number of players available to step into the sytem quickly, and will leave a lot of teams, the Patriots included, looking at long-term conversion projects a la Tedy Bruschi. It will also likely mean a lot more competition for the 'right' free agents. Guys like Dansby and Scott will be happy with the extra bidders, but the Patriots' salary structure will likely be tested.

 

[MassPats38]

wuts a 3-3-2?

Apparently also referred to as the 33 stack (I'm familiar with that reference). A better diagram here.

It requires 3 safeties and 2 corners (3 LBs, 3 linemen). Given the difficulties keeping d-backs on the field in the past, the Pats would have to start stockpiling.

 

[maverick4]

Mangini switched to 3-4 and it ended up messing the team up more than it helped the Jets.

He also completely mortgaged their future by trading future picks and also spending huge money.

 

[Deus Irae]

Mangini switched to 3-4 and it ended up messing the team up more than it helped the Jets.

He also completely mortgaged their future by trading future picks and also spending huge money.

Which is why the next coach may not want to go through that same process all over again.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'm a little surprised at the idea of Denver and KC switching to the 3-4. I understand that Pioli has mainly scouted 3-4 players, but his skill has been more finding players to fit a system than exclusively being a 3-4 guy. McDaniels comes from an offensive background, so it shouldn't matter to him. Mike Nolan has a 3-4 background, but I also believe some 4-3 mixed in as well.

It seems to me that switching schemes when the personnel aren't well adapted to it is a potentially big mistake. The Jets are a good example of how hard the change can be. I understand that Denver has a lot of holes and that some of their recent picks (e.g., Jarvis Moss) might be adapted to a 3-4 switch, but others less so. DJ Williams is probably the best player currently on their front 7, and he is 6-1 242# - not really the site (or temperment) to play 3-4 OLB. They could try moving him back inside to 3-4 WILB, but they have already spent a lot of time moving him around from ILB to OLB, which can really mess a player up. Jamie Winborn is 5-11" 230#, and Wesley Woodyard, whom they converted from S to OLB last year, is 6' 230# - more the speedy kind of OLBs for a Cover 2 scheme than the big OLBs suited to take on blockers in a 3-4 scheme. Tim Crower at 6'4" 275# is too small for an effective 3-4 DE. I could see Moss moving to 3-4 OLB and DJ Williams moving back inside, but it seems like they would have to rebuild their whole defense from scratch.

KC is even more perplexing to me. Glenn Dorsey at DT and Derrick Johnson at OLB are just not at all physically suited to the demands of a 3-4 defense. In addition, it is probably harder to find suitable 3-4 personnel at the DT, DE, and LB positions, and may take years to develop or convert, so it would seem to make a rebuilding job harder.

Mike Tomlin took over the Pittsburgh job coming from a 4-3 DC background, and there was speculation about whether he would try to convert Pittsburgh to a 4-3 team. He wisely left **** LeBeau and the defense alone, continuing to draft players such as Lamar Woodley who fit their existing scheme. I understand that KC and Denver are in much more of a rebuilding mode than Pittsburgh, but it still seems to me like this is not necessarily a recipe for success.

 

[kas]

I'm actually of the opposite opinion - I think the more teams that shift to the 3-4 the better it is for BB and the Pats. Look, it's obvious BB prefers vets in his front seven. Some of you may bring up guys like Mayo, Seymour, Warren, Wilfork but these guys were early/mid 1st round picks. The only notable exceptions have been Guyton (and to a lesser extent Green and Wright).

That being said, we will be seeing a lot more FA's who have experience in the 3-4 and in D's somewhat similar to ours (Cleveland, Denver, KC). There will be more of those underappreciated vets floating around for BB to pluck. Fewer Monty Beisels and Steve Martins, more Anthony Pleasants/Bobby Hamiltons/Mike Vrabels.

Consider these teams to be our own little breeding ground of future FA possibilities

 

[unoriginal]

If there's any team in the team ripe for a defensive front switch, it would be Denver. They have very little talent in their current front seven, and it's been that way for awhile.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I haven't read that KC is making any switch on defense yet. Pioli is still in the process of evaluating his new team.

Denver needs a complete overhaul, if any team out there might be in the running for Mike Wright it's Denver. Picking number 16, I wouldn't be surprised if they targeted B.J. Raji as a potential NT.

 

[Pat the Pats Fan]

Yes, but where once not that long ago the only teams running the 3-4 were New England and Pittsburgh, we could now see up to eight teams running it:

Denver
New England
San Diego
NYJ
Cleveland
KC
Miami
Baltimore

Given the lack of 3-4 teams in college, that will really put a strain on the number of players available to step into the sytem quickly, and will leave a lot of teams, the Patriots included, looking at long-term conversion projects a la Tedy Bruschi. It will also likely mean a lot more competition for the 'right' free agents. Guys like Dansby and Scott will be happy with the extra bidders, but the Patriots' salary structure will likely be tested.[/quote]

my thoughts too.....

 

[TripleOption]

Apparently also referred to as the 33 stack (I'm familiar with that reference). A better diagram here.

It requires 3 safeties and 2 corners (3 LBs, 3 linemen). Given the difficulties keeping d-backs on the field in the past, the Pats would have to start stockpiling.

The 3-3 Stack is a 3-3-5. It is an 8 man front stack defense primarily played in college and HS.

 

[TripleOption]

The Jets could switch back to the 4-3 or even the 4-6 if Rex Ryan is hired as head coach. The Broncos and Jets could negate themselves.

Besides, if McDaniels learned from Belichick, the switch from 4-3 to 3-4 will not be overnight and could take 2 years or longer to complete. Remember the Pats primary defense in the 2001 season was the 4-3 because they struggled with the 3-4 early in the season. The Pats didn't switch to the 3-4 as their base until the 2003 season.

Ryan runs a 3-4 but it is no similar to the Pats defense. The "46" is an odd front with similar personnel but is not something that is played all the time or as a base anymore. It's more of a change up these days.

 

[fair catch fryar]

Apparently also referred to as the 33 stack (I'm familiar with that reference). A better diagram here.

It requires 3 safeties and 2 corners (3 LBs, 3 linemen). Given the difficulties keeping d-backs on the field in the past, the Pats would have to start stockpiling.

Would this have been what we saw mostly this year HAD Tank Williams and Rodney been healthy all year?

 

[Rob0729]

Yes, but where once not that long ago the only teams running the 3-4 were New England and Pittsburgh, we could now see up to eight teams running it:

Denver
New England
San Diego
NYJ
Cleveland
KC
Miami
Baltimore

Given the lack of 3-4 teams in college, that will really put a strain on the number of players available to step into the sytem quickly, and will leave a lot of teams, the Patriots included, looking at long-term conversion projects a la Tedy Bruschi. It will also likely mean a lot more competition for the 'right' free agents. Guys like Dansby and Scott will be happy with the extra bidders, but the Patriots' salary structure will likely be tested.

First, the Chiefs probably won't switch to a 3-4 until next year at the earliest since it looks Herm is coming back. Besides, they spend some high draft picks in recent years trying to get 4-3 players. Pioli might decide it may be better to build a 4-3 team especially if he hires a head coach with that philosophy.

Second, the Jets could switch back to a 4-3 now that Mangini is gone. Rex Ryan loves his father's 4-6 and if he gets the job, he may move the Jets to that formation once he has final say over all philosophies. He pushed for it to be implemented under Billick.

Third, with Ron Rivera as the DC of the Chargers, he might morph that team into a Tampa 2 defense. That is what he ran in Chicago and it was a dominant defense. So the Chargers could let go of some of their 3-4 players in the next few years. Granted they are an one gap 3-4 defense which is very different than the Pats' two-gap.

Fourth, Baltimore could change their defense after this season. If they lose Ryan and two of the three free agent LBs in Suggs, Scott, and Lewis; they may decide to move back to a more traditional 4-3.

So there is a chance that there could be 3-4 less teams running the 3-4 than you state.

Besides, there are two sides of every argument. With more teams running the 3-4, it also means that there will be far more free agent LBs in near future who will be versed in the 3-4 and can come into the Pats and make an immediate impact. The chances of the Pats acquiring Vrabel type of players increase in this scenario. There will be LBs who aren't seeing playing time because of depth at a certain LB spot who can come to the Patriots and potentially break out right away because they already know the Pats' system.

I don't think it is as dire as you make it sound. The Pats have rarely drafted a LB who has made the team anyway. In fact, it wasn't until the 3-4 became all the rage in the NFL that the Pats even drafted a LB higher than the fifth round. So if a couple more teams start running the 3-4, it isn't going to affect the Patriots drafting? San Deigo and Pittsburgh have never been active in free agency and choose to draft talent instead. The Jets are going to be cash strapped for the next year or two. So is Cleveland. Neither will be big free agent players.

 

[Rob0729]

Ryan runs a 3-4 but it is no similar to the Pats defense. The "46" is an odd front with similar personnel but is not something that is played all the time or as a base anymore. It's more of a change up these days.

He runs it now, but he has been fighting to implement the 4-6 for years. He is a huge proponent of the defense and even written a book on it. When he calls his own show, he may implement it as the base defense. Besides, Ryan has successfully run both the 3-4 and 4-3 in Baltimore. But he could stay with the 3-4 in NY if he gets the job. But it isn't guaranteed.