Assessing Pioli, beyond the obvious

[Fencer]

That other thread on assessing Pioli has become a flamefest. Anyhow, here are some of my thoughts:

1. There can be no doubt that Pioli has done a great job of providing players that fit BB's system better than they fit other teams in the league. It's harder to say whether that proves the system is clever, or whether Pioli just does a good job of delivering the specific kind of player requested.

A related open question is whether Pioli could do it for any system, or just the one he knows best.

2. By all accounts the Patriots have a great, effective, well-organized field scouting organization. Pioli surely deserves a lot of credit for that, and it is most likely a skill that can be tranferred to another organization.

3. BB's system was much more unusual when he started with the Pats than it is now. That gave BB/Pioli an unfair advantage in getting who they wanted that has not wholly endured.

In a related unfair advantage, they knew a lot of JAG FAs who would up contributing early in the BB/Pioli era of the Pats.

4. Pioli is a very tough negotiator on contracts. I've sometimes thought he may be too tough, based on credible-sounding stories of guys who could have been retained by the Pats for less money than they wound up taking elsewhere.

That said, I think the complete list of serious botches in this regard is:

A. Pissing off Branch as a rookie, which came back to bite him at the end of Branch's contract.
B. Not locking up Asante as he began to prove his value.
C. Missing out on one more year of Ted Washington.
D. MAYBE Grahambo.

And if you're a good negotiator, the number of such botches shouldn't be zero. (If it is, you're negotiating too weakly.)

 

[PittPatriot]

I agree with most of your assessments, except you used the term 'unfair' advantage twice.
There is nothing unfair about having a system that is progressive and strengthens you for the future. It just means the others use an outdated model. There is also nothing unfair about knowing JAGs and FA based on past experiences.

 

[maverick4]

But would we have fit all our players under the cap without hard negotiating?

We could pay generously but that would destroy our overall depth

 

[SoonerPatriot]

That other thread on assessing Pioli has become a flamefest. Anyhow, here are some of my thoughts:

1. There can be no doubt that Pioli has done a great job of providing players that fit BB's system better than they fit other teams in the league. It's harder to say whether that proves the system is clever, or whether Pioli just does a good job of delivering the specific kind of player requested.

A related open question is whether Pioli could do it for any system, or just the one he knows best.

2. By all accounts the Patriots have a great, effective, well-organized field scouting organization. Pioli surely deserves a lot of credit for that, and it is most likely a skill that can be tranferred to another organization.

3. BB's system was much more unusual when he started with the Pats than it is now. That gave BB/Pioli an unfair advantage in getting who they wanted that has not wholly endured.

In a related unfair advantage, they knew a lot of JAG FAs who would up contributing early in the BB/Pioli era of the Pats.

4. Pioli is a very tough negotiator on contracts. I've sometimes thought he may be too tough, based on credible-sounding stories of guys who could have been retained by the Pats for less money than they wound up taking elsewhere.

That said, I think the complete list of serious botches in this regard is:

A. Pissing off Branch as a rookie, which came back to bite him at the end of Branch's contract.
B. Not locking up Asante as he began to prove his value.
C. Missing out on one more year of Ted Washington.
D. MAYBE Grahambo.

And if you're a good negotiator, the number of such botches shouldn't be zero. (If it is, you're negotiating too weakly.)

To me B is maybe the biggest whiff Pioli had in his tenure with the Pats.

Ted Washington isn't a big deal because we won the SB the following year without him. The Branch issue is a little more subjective since his agent decided to go public with the squabble first.

 

[Fencer]

I agree with most of your assessments, except you used the term 'unfair' advantage twice.
There is nothing unfair about having a system that is progressive and strengthens you for the future. It just means the others use an outdated model. There is also nothing unfair about knowing JAGs and FA based on past experiences.

That use of "unfair" advantage has been popular since at least the early 1980s in my business, which is high-tech, as a generalization of the concept of "barrier to entry". Somebody -- either Hambrecht & Quist, a major venture capitalist, or both -- talked endlessly about the desirability of investing in companies with unfair competitive advantages.

 

[Fencer]

But would we have fit all our players under the cap without hard negotiating?

We could pay generously but that would destroy our overall depth

The ideal godlike negotiator always knows exactly how hard to negotiate.

The best possible human negotiator sometimes asks for too much and sometimes asks for too little, but balances those errors pretty well.

I'm suggesting Pioli's litany of asking for too much is a little too long for him to be regarded as the best possible mortal negotiator, but that's it's not too long for him to be regarded as pretty good at it.

 

[Fencer]

To me B is maybe the biggest whiff Pioli had in his tenure with the Pats.

No argument from me on that.

 

[fgssand]

At least this thread is civil, so far, I agree with B.

I still think he stays as what has really changed in two years??


1/8/07
Statement from Patriots V.P. of Player Personnel Scott PioliNew England PatriotsSpeculation regarding the Giants interest in Patriots VP of Personnel Scott Pioli was answered today in a brief statement from Pioli issued through the Patriots PR department.


I am very honored to be granted the opportunity to discuss a potential position with the New York Giants. I have tremendous respect for the Kraft family, the Mara family, the Tisch family and the Giants organization. After careful consideration, and for personal reasons, I am continuing in my current role with the New England Patriots."

 

[BradyBranch39]

The problem with Branch was that his ***hole agent was being such a whiny ***** with the whole situation. He went public with every little thing, etc.

I bet that Branch wanted to stay more than he wanted to leave... but his agent wanted his share of the most (every little) $$ he could get.

Then, there was that whole thing wiht the Jets -- tampering, right?

 

[dhamz]

When was this time the Pats were supposed to give Asante a long term deal on their terms?

He blew up in 2006. By then it was too late to give him anything but a big $ deal so it has to be before.

The case being made cannot be he should have gotten a long term extension after 2004 - after his 2nd season? That just isn't done in the NFL and the Pats would have opened up a can of worms with other players they would still be dealing with now.

The time to visit an extension would have been after 2005. Does everyone forget Asante played poorly for most of 2005? He didn't look like a future star that season. His play was considered a disappointment. No one was calling him a must extend then like they are with a Wilfork.

This seems like a case of revisionist history to me.

 

[Pats726]

A. Pissing off Branch as a rookie, which came back to bite him at the end of Branch's contract.
B. Not locking up Asante as he began to prove his value.
C. Missing out on one more year of Ted Washington.
D. MAYBE Grahambo.

And if you're a good negotiator, the number of such botches shouldn't be zero. (If it is, you're negotiating too weakly.)

A---I believe it was a number of things that upset Branch..including the offer to Mason a few months after he was MVP as well as the fact Givens was a FA that year and headed for big money..as well as that last year of the contract..so..to me Branch and his agent were more at fault on that one...
B---When would he be locked up?? After 04-05?? He really wasn't that good at that point..locking him up 2 years early? He wasn't THAT good to warrant that at all...
C---From all indications. Washington had a deal to stay and all of a sudden when the FA period started a few minutes after midnight..he signed elsewhere...
D---Graham from all I read wished to go west..out of the area...
I am sure there are OTHER mistakes that he made..maybe some less publicized..but I can't see him at fault any of the four..

 

[BPF]

A---I believe it was a number of things that upset Branch..including the offer to Mason a few months after he was MVP as well as the fact Givens was a FA that year and headed for big money..as well as that last year of the contract..so..to me Branch and his agent were more at fault on that one...
B---When would he be locked up?? After 04-05?? He really wasn't that good at that point..locking him up 2 years early? He wasn't THAT good to warrant that at all...
C---From all indications. Washington had a deal to stay and all of a sudden when the FA period started a few minutes after midnight..he signed elsewhere...
D---Graham from all I read wished to go west..out of the area...
I am sure there are OTHER mistakes that he made..maybe some less publicized..but I can't see him at fault any of the four..

Agree with these points, there does seem to be some revisionist history with regards to Asante taking place.

 

[edzo44]

My personal opinion is that Pioli is not seriously interested in any of the jobs currently being presented. I think he is going through the motions of the interviews to get practice in how to handle interviews (which, as far as I know, he hasn't done before). He will then spend the next year or two polishing his interview skills for a job he really wants but with a hand picked replacement fully trained to take over for him when he leaves the Pats. I would be shocked if he did otherwise.

I also feel the same process is taking place with Josh - - - just practice to get the feel of how to prepare for and present oneself in an interview. And a little further training in how to be a head coach.

No flaming please just my opinon of another possibility.

 

[Leave No Doubt]

My personal opinion is that Pioli is not seriously interested in any of the jobs currently being presented. I think he is going through the motions of the interviews to get practice in how to handle interviews (which, as far as I know, he hasn't done before). He will then spend the next year or two polishing his interview skills for a job he really wants but with a hand picked replacement fully trained to take over for him when he leaves the Pats. I would be shocked if he did otherwise.

I also feel the same process is taking place with Josh - - - just practice to get the feel of how to prepare for and present oneself in an interview. And a little further training in how to be a head coach.

No flaming please just my opinon of another possibility.

I'm kinda with that too. I'm not sure of the actual reasons they're doing interviews but they'll both stick here imho,at least for now. We know of no reason for Pioli to back off his recent words so unless something major's changed he's here.

Josh would be wise to get himself another year under his belt before he heads out for greener pastures,if he's even thinking of heading out.

Interviewing experience is good for so many reasons-a lil' brain picking around the league never hurts either

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

My personal opinion is that Pioli is not seriously interested in any of the jobs currently being presented. I think he is going through the motions of the interviews to get practice in how to handle interviews (which, as far as I know, he hasn't done before). He will then spend the next year or two polishing his interview skills for a job he really wants but with a hand picked replacement fully trained to take over for him when he leaves the Pats. I would be shocked if he did otherwise.

I also feel the same process is taking place with Josh - - - just practice to get the feel of how to prepare for and present oneself in an interview. And a little further training in how to be a head coach.

I agree completely. Why NOT talk to others? You develop your own self selling interview skills. You learn the questions to ask about new opportunities. You gain new and different perspectives by viewing the philosophy and internals of other organizations which should stimulate creative thinking on your job. You may gain a greater appreciation and perspective on your current work environment. Or you may find a better career opportunity.

 

[dhamz]

Not really buying that Pioli is out getting interview experience. In McDaniels case that matters.

Pioli's resume sells itself. His interviews with other teams are more about what type of control he wants, what type of $ he wants in order to take the job and will the owner offer it.

In McDaniels case it comes down to convincing an owner/GM that they want Josh. In Pioli's case, he already knows they want him. It is about laying out what they are going to give him and whether it matches what he wants/needs.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Why are we starting another thread on this!!!!!

If we can only have one thread on assessing Brady being traded there is no reason to have multiple threads on assessing Pioli!

MODS PLEASE MERGE!!!!!

 

[PromisedLand]

Not really buying that Pioli is out getting interview experience. In McDaniels case that matters.

Pioli's resume sells itself. His interviews with other teams are more about what type of control he wants, what type of $ he wants in order to take the job and will the owner offer it.

In McDaniels case it comes down to convincing an owner/GM that they want Josh. In Pioli's case, he already knows they want him. It is about laying out what they are going to give him and whether it matches what he wants/needs.

Maybe Pioli is just interested in gauging his market value so he can negotiate with the Pats from a position of strength. Possibly his ideal scenario is to stay with the Pats but he doesn't want to be paid less than he would if he were on the open market.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

For Pioli I think it would have to be the "right" situation for him to leave.

I think Cleveland could be "right" situation, if their owner gets out of the way.

However, if Pioli does not get everything he wants, why would he leave?

As for McDaniels, why wouldn't he take an opportunity that comes along?

 

[BelichickFan]

B. Not locking up Asante as he began to prove his value.

As Samuel just showed again.

Bottom line, we can't be losing playmakers that are in the early part of their prime.