What we need next year: PASS RUSHING

[DaBruinz]

Last year we were up big and other teams had to pass to catch up. Vrabel's sack total was bloated because of that. Vrabel has clearly lost a step as I never saw him get around the edge this year like he used to. Vrabel would be great if we moved him inside.

Signing Suggs would be ideal. Him and AD on the edges would be sick. I didn't see enough of Crable to say he would bring pressure from the outside as he seemed lack the quick first step needed to be a monster on the edges. I watched some South FLorida games and George Selvie seems ideal. I don't know about his coverage skills, but his quick first step and moves to get to the QB are outstanding. I'd be thrilled if we draft him.

Keep in mind that Vrabel, for much of the beginning of the year, was lining up at ROLB and going up against the opposing teams best OT and many times a TE as well. I wouldn't expect him to put up big numbers.

As for Selvie, you can't go just by one game and you can't forget that the Pats OLBs aren't JUST pass rushers. They need to be able to set the edge against the run AND be able to drop back into coverage...

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't think people are suggesting getting an OLB that excels as a pass rusher and can do nothing else. I've gotten frustrated to the point if they aren't going to draft someone first or 2nd round then just get a one trip pony like bruschi was and you can groom him. Vrabel was groomed, but he was a defensive end at first and you could utilize him to just rush the passer as he learns how to set the edge and cover.

I think people want a player whose strength is pass rushing and can also set the edge and cover, but in reality those players just don't exist out of college and the ones that do go top 10.

Sorry, but in ALL of your other posts, you wanted a SACK specialist. Those were your words. You wanted someone who could just get to the QB. This is the FIRST time you said word one about anything else.

And you are correct, those players don't exist coming out of college unless they are a top 5 pick. And, the Pats are picking in the bottom half of the draft. So even if there was one available this year (which there isn't) the Pats wouldn't be getting him anyways.

The draft will not provide a fix all for the OLB position. And the Pats may feel that with the young talent they already have, they don't need to add someone else from the draft.

I wouldn't mind seeing Suggs because he CAN rush the passer, set the edge and drop into coverage. But I'm not holding my breath that the Pats are going to sign him.

 

[redsox33]

We'll never know but I wonder- how much was Vrabel really hurt this season. He started off on PUP, then started the season ridiculously slow but seemed to be more visible the last half of the season. If he was just injured then hopefully this season is just an off year. He isn't getting younger though but that would mean that we'd prob. get another good year out of him while getting Crable some snaps as well.

Also Thomas is over 30, he isn't getting younger either (someone already pointed that out)

I will say in terms of run stopping, Vrabel and Thomas set the edge well, Colvin just ok, Woods Guyton, and Redd got burned too many times, and Crable didn't get a chance to show what he could do.

It also is one of those which came first situations: Was the pass rush off because of the secondary and having to drop guys into coverage or was the secondary exploited because of the pass rush guys? I think it was a little of both- using ILB's for coverage instead of blitz' and usually having to drop one of your OLB's to cover TE's (AD did this a lot when he was in there) and that usually leaves you rushing just 4 guys.

 

[condon84]

Keep in mind that Vrabel, for much of the beginning of the year, was lining up at ROLB and going up against the opposing teams best OT and many times a TE as well. I wouldn't expect him to put up big numbers.

As for Selvie, you can't go just by one game and you can't forget that the Pats OLBs aren't JUST pass rushers. They need to be able to set the edge against the run AND be able to drop back into coverage...

Vrabel has lost a step. You can't sit here and tell me that he's as effective as he was last year or before. He was in Colvin's old spot and he didn't pressure the QB as much as Colvin did in prior years. Vrabel would be great inside next to Mayo, but we need someone who can go up the field and rush the passer like Colvin did. Even though Colvin never had the monster sack years that everyone envisioned when he first signed, he was a constant pressure off the edge. We missed that greatly this year especially when AD got hurt.

I saw Selvie play more than a couple of games. This year, he commanded double teams all game long and he still put some pressure. The year before, when he didn't receive the double team he did this year, he completely dominated. Now, whether he can set the edge or play the run as well as he rushes, I don't know. But I remember when Terrell Suggs came out of college and he was a pure pass rusher and with the Ravens good coaching, is now as equally effective stopping the run and setting the edge as he is rushing the QB.

Reason why I like Selvie is that he reminds me of Colvin. Quick first step and really athletic. He is also lean like Colvin, but showed his strength when he fought off double teams this year and still pressured the QB.

 

[jays52]

Just for argument's sake why not go after a guy whose skill set is skewed towards the pass rush? We've got guys who can defend the run and play effective zone. We've got a guy in Thomas who can rush the passer with a hand down or from the two point. Our 34 personel up front is fine. Look outside the box for solutions and please for the love of god ease up on the hyperbole and dogma.

What we don't have is a guy who can put his hand down in a sub-package and get after the quarterback. We don't have an Elvis Dumerville. What happens if you add this situational player? Well, it aids your schematic flexability behind the LOS, it puts a guy on the field who can rush the passer without sacrificing coverages, it opens up a whole bunch of things. Our 34 personel are not what is hurting us. The subpackages don't have the hand-down rushers required to apply ample pressure without sacrificing coverage.

 

[satz]

We can generate pass rush if we have a good secondary that can cover and we need not drop LB in the zone to help safeties so the safeties can help CB.

If we get decent coverage from the CB our safeties can defend the middle better against TE leaving our ILB to do what LB suppose to do cover RB and play stong against the RUN releasing our OLB to pass rush instead of dropping vrabel and ad in coverage all day


Hobbs,wheatley ,wilhite need to play and i am hoping the rookie improve and we draft or bring in 1 good CB .

 

[Kontradiction]

We can generate pass rush if we have a good secondary that can cover and we need not drop LB in the zone to help safeties so the safeties can help CB.

If we get decent coverage from the CB our safeties can defend the middle better against TE leaving our ILB to do what LB suppose to do cover RB and play stong against the RUN releasing our OLB to pass rush instead of dropping vrabel and ad in coverage all day


Hobbs,wheatley ,wilhite need to play and i am hoping the rookie improve and we draft or bring in 1 good CB .

Not even Deion Sanders was able to cover an NFL calibur wide receiver for 10 seconds. Our CBs are fine (I'm happy with the draft considering how Wilhite and Wheatley looked prior to injury [Wheatley that is]). We could replace Rodney this year with a younger, quicker version and that would really boost the secondary to put him next to Meriweather. Remember how much better our secondary looked in the last few games when we were able to generate a good pass rush?

 

[redsox33]

I think the point was-

How can you expect a good pass rush when 3 out of 4 linebackers are dropped into coverage(2ILB's and 1OLB) and you only have 4 guys working on the actual pass rush (1OLB and the 3DL)

 

[cblesz]

Not even Deion Sanders was able to cover an NFL calibur wide receiver for 10 seconds. Our CBs are fine (I'm happy with the draft considering how Wilhite and Wheatley looked prior to injury [Wheatley that is]). We could replace Rodney this year with a younger, quicker version and that would really boost the secondary to put him next to Meriweather. Remember how much better our secondary looked in the last few games when we were able to generate a good pass rush?

Not being a smararse...but I seriously did not notice how Wheatley was doing. Was he doing that well before thei njury? I am serious...if he was progressing well, we should be OK at corner...

 

[Kontradiction]

Not being a smararse...but I seriously did not notice how Wheatley was doing. Was he doing that well before thei njury? I am serious...if he was progressing well, we should be OK at corner...

Well, he didn't blow me away as a Deion Sanders/Champ Bailey prototype but he was more than adequate before he got injured. I hope we'll see a lot more of him, Hobbs, and Wilhite next year.

 

[DocE]

I agree that improving the pass rush is a pressing need, but I am not sure it outweighs the cornerback position on the needs scale.

We badly missed Asante's cover skills and his playmaking ability in the secondary this year. It would really anger me if we started the '09 season with Ellis Hobbs being the most proven CB on our roster (like we did in '08). No more signing guys cut by the Lions (Bryant) and the Bengals (O'Neal) and hoping to find lightning in a bottle.

As for this "sack specialist" argument that DaBruinz continues to have, I would suggest that a "sack specialist" could make it on the Patriots. Not as a starter, but as a sub package defender. The Patriots use so many different formations, especially on 3rd down, that there could be room on the roster for a guy who is great at rushing the passer, but offers little against the run. I realize that a player that fits that description hasn't been on the team in the past, but that doesn't meant it couldn't happen in the future. The 3rd down, and red zone defenses were absolutely awful this season, so something drastic needs to change.

Final somewhat related note: I realize the need to get faster and more athletic on defense but I worry about the leadership on this team going forward if Bruschi, Vrabel, and Harrison are alll gone. I don't see anyone currently on the roster ready to step up and fill what would be a huge leadership void. It's also hard to be a leader if you are not on the field. It's for that reason that I think it would be good for a minimum of one of those 3 to be a starter on the 2009 Pats D.

 

[cblesz]

Well, he didn't blow me away as a Deion Sanders/Champ Bailey prototype but he was more than adequate before he got injured. I hope we'll see a lot more of him, Hobbs, and Wilhite next year.

Thanks. Then we can leave Deltha Oneal at home...

 

[DaBruinz]

Vrabel has lost a step. You can't sit here and tell me that he's as effective as he was last year or before. He was in Colvin's old spot and he didn't pressure the QB as much as Colvin did in prior years. Vrabel would be great inside next to Mayo, but we need someone who can go up the field and rush the passer like Colvin did. Even though Colvin never had the monster sack years that everyone envisioned when he first signed, he was a constant pressure off the edge. We missed that greatly this year especially when AD got hurt.

Please tell me where I said otherwise about Vrabel. I was pointing out to you that he wasn't playing his normal position to start the year. Sorry if you don't like dealing with facts. As for moving inside, Vrabel has already said he's against it because his back can't take the pounding.

Another reason that Vrabel wasn't playing as well at the ROLB is that Seymour wasn't drawing double-teams like he used to. That freed up someone to take on Vrabel.

No one said that the Patriots didn't miss having a pass rush. However, its as much a function of the play-calling as it is the people on the field. And it wasn't Bruschi or Vrabel calling the adjustments. It was Thomas.

Does the Pass rush need to be improved? Yes. But no one the Pats draft, including Selvie, is going to come in and do that. So, even if the Pats added him, it would be 2-3 years befoe we saw any production.

I saw Selvie play more than a couple of games. This year, he commanded double teams all game long and he still put some pressure. The year before, when he didn't receive the double team he did this year, he completely dominated. Now, whether he can set the edge or play the run as well as he rushes, I don't know. But I remember when Terrell Suggs came out of college and he was a pure pass rusher and with the Ravens good coaching, is now as equally effective stopping the run and setting the edge as he is rushing the QB.

Reason why I like Selvie is that he reminds me of Colvin. Quick first step and really athletic. He is also lean like Colvin, but showed his strength when he fought off double teams this year and still pressured the QB.

Suggs wasn't just a pure pass rusher coming out of college. That is a fallacy on your part. Suggs played very well against the run as well coming out of college. And for Suggs 1st year, he was playing DE in the 4-3. Because that is what the Ravens were running at the time.

 

[Kontradiction]

Thanks. Then we can leave Deltha Oneal at home...

Yeah, I would also prefer not to ever see him again. Just so completely and brutally awful.

 

[DaBruinz]

Just for argument's sake why not go after a guy whose skill set is skewed towards the pass rush? We've got guys who can defend the run and play effective zone. We've got a guy in Thomas who can rush the passer with a hand down or from the two point. Our 34 personel up front is fine. Look outside the box for solutions and please for the love of god ease up on the hyperbole and dogma.

Why not? Because that person whose skill set is skewed towards the Pass Rush would be a liability against the run and more so in coverage.

Contrary to what you've said, most of us DO l"ook outside the box", in many fashions. We also realize the truth of the situation when it comes to developing players and adjusting to the NFL.

What we don't have is a guy who can put his hand down in a sub-package and get after the quarterback. We don't have an Elvis Dumerville. What happens if you add this situational player? Well, it aids your schematic flexability behind the LOS, it puts a guy on the field who can rush the passer without sacrificing coverages, it opens up a whole bunch of things. Our 34 personel are not what is hurting us. The subpackages don't have the hand-down rushers required to apply ample pressure without sacrificing coverage.

What happens is you telegraph what you are going to do and where it is going to be coming from. This allows the offense to adjust accordingly. It actually doesn't add to your schematic flexibility because that person is limited in what they can do. That means you've limited part of your flexibility and, in all likelihood, that players is going to be ineffective on that play.

Actually, the lack of a consistent pass rush by the front 7 did hurt the Patriots. Alot. Injuries also hurt the Patriots. ALOT. Not being able to have Jarvis Green rush the passer on 3rd down plays from outside the tackles hurt the Pats. Instead, they had to go with a 2-5-4 or 2-4-5 formation that prevented them from getting an effective pass-rush.

 

[DaBruinz]

I agree that improving the pass rush is a pressing need, but I am not sure it outweighs the cornerback position on the needs scale.

We badly missed Asante's cover skills and his playmaking ability in the secondary this year. It would really anger me if we started the '09 season with Ellis Hobbs being the most proven CB on our roster (like we did in '08). No more signing guys cut by the Lions (Bryant) and the Bengals (O'Neal) and hoping to find lightning in a bottle.

Asante's cover skills? I think you mean his benefitting from the front seven's ability to put pressure on the QB. Samuel was a good player, but he didn't tackle well and he got burned as many times as he made a play.

As for this "sack specialist" argument that DaBruinz continues to have, I would suggest that a "sack specialist" could make it on the Patriots. Not as a starter, but as a sub package defender. The Patriots use so many different formations, especially on 3rd down, that there could be room on the roster for a guy who is great at rushing the passer, but offers little against the run. I realize that a player that fits that description hasn't been on the team in the past, but that doesn't meant it couldn't happen in the future. The 3rd down, and red zone defenses were absolutely awful this season, so something drastic needs to change. [/quyote]

Tell me something, how long do you think it will take opposing defenses to figure out that your "sack specialist" is coming onto the field and that you'll be rushing the passer from that side? How long do you think it will take a QB to recognize that player, audible to a different play and light up the defense? I'm sorry, but I'd really like for someone to give an explanation as to how sending out that particular sub package wouldn't telegraph to the offense what was coming?

Final somewhat related note: I realize the need to get faster and more athletic on defense but I worry about the leadership on this team going forward if Bruschi, Vrabel, and Harrison are alll gone. I don't see anyone currently on the roster ready to step up and fill what would be a huge leadership void. It's also hard to be a leader if you are not on the field. It's for that reason that I think it would be good for a minimum of one of those 3 to be a starter on the 2009 Pats D.

The Patriots have Mayo. They also have Warren. They could have Wilfork and Meriweather. They do have Adalius Thomas. Leadership isn't something that I am overly worried about at this point in time because I believe that they have the players developing already for that.

 

[condon84]

Please tell me where I said otherwise about Vrabel. I was pointing out to you that he wasn't playing his normal position to start the year. Sorry if you don't like dealing with facts. As for moving inside, Vrabel has already said he's against it because his back can't take the pounding.

Another reason that Vrabel wasn't playing as well at the ROLB is that Seymour wasn't drawing double-teams like he used to. That freed up someone to take on Vrabel.

No one said that the Patriots didn't miss having a pass rush. However, its as much a function of the play-calling as it is the people on the field. And it wasn't Bruschi or Vrabel calling the adjustments. It was Thomas.

Does the Pass rush need to be improved? Yes. But no one the Pats draft, including Selvie, is going to come in and do that. So, even if the Pats added him, it would be 2-3 years befoe we saw any production.



Suggs wasn't just a pure pass rusher coming out of college. That is a fallacy on your part. Suggs played very well against the run as well coming out of college. And for Suggs 1st year, he was playing DE in the 4-3. Because that is what the Ravens were running at the time.

So him playing out of position is the reason why he couldn't generate a good pass rush even though he was the main OLB that rushed the passer? The year before, Colvin was the main rusher, but Vrabel managed more sacks even though he dropped back to cover. This year, AD dropped back to cover and Vrabel was the main rusher. The fact that Vrabel had MORE opportunities but less provided less pressure proves that he did lose a step. I'm sorry your in denial of this, but it was clear as day.

Also, Seymour had his best year in a while and was double teamed constantly. I don't know what you were watching but that's what I saw. I mean, what do you expect, a free run at the QB from our OLB all the time? I mean, even if Seymour wasn't double teamed, it's not like Vrabel was double teamed anyways.

I don't know what your point was in arguing my post, but my point clearly went over your head.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Sorry, but in ALL of your other posts, you wanted a SACK specialist. Those were your words. You wanted someone who could just get to the QB. This is the FIRST time you said word one about anything else.

And you are correct, those players don't exist coming out of college unless they are a top 5 pick. And, the Pats are picking in the bottom half of the draft. So even if there was one available this year (which there isn't) the Pats wouldn't be getting him anyways.

The draft will not provide a fix all for the OLB position. And the Pats may feel that with the young talent they already have, they don't need to add someone else from the draft.

I wouldn't mind seeing Suggs because he CAN rush the passer, set the edge and drop into coverage. But I'm not holding my breath that the Pats are going to sign him.

and i stand by someone who can sack the QB. look at vrabel he was a d-end. so was tedi. in reality will we find someone who can do all three? well maybe, but not very good. i'd rather we get a third OLB/DE who can excel at rushing the passer. even if it takes him time to learn the other two skills.

we do need a sack specialist. the pass rush is not good. if we can teach the other two skills all the better. but we need immedite help at passrushing and since most of these guys are projects we can at least get production as a pass rusher out of these guys.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Every team needs a pass rusher ... they are an elite few really. It will have to be with the luck of a middle round pick as we have other more pressing needs... it is what it is.

 

[RayClay]

Then show me when the Patriots had some "kick ass" pass rushers on their team during this run with BB and Pioli.

McGinest Colvin and Vrabel was pretty good.

Unfortunately Colvin got injured and McGinest was the only monster rusher we've had in that era.

Of course Bruschi used to get a lot of pressure up the middle too.