Are the Patriots getting out-schemed?

[maverick4]

I can buy the injuries having an effect, but how about before Harrison and Thomas and Warren and Wilfork and Bruschi went down, when we were at full health, and still getting torched by lesser QB's in the first half of the season?

Was that due to talent or scheme issues?

 

[MassPats38]

I can buy the injuries having an effect, but how about before Harrison and Thomas and Warren and Wilfork and Bruschi went down, when we were at full health, and still getting torched by lesser QB's in the first half of the season?

Was that due to talent or scheme issues?

Two conclusions I have made on Belichick's approach over the years: (1) he did not value high-priced wide receivers (a good run sets up the pass - changed after 2006); and (2) he does not value high-priced defensive backs. The reason for (2) is, barring a roster of 4 shutdown defensive backs, passes will be completed given enough time. Even mediocre defensive backs can hold a receiver for a couple of seconds, so if the front seven can get to the QB in that time, the QB will either take a sack or force a bad pass. That is why he has always thrown money at the front seven while using veterans and rookies in the secondary rather than high-priced free agents.

For some reason, last year to some extent and this year, the front seven has not been as effective as it has been in previous years at putting the pressure on the QB. I don't know if it's age, experience (for the rookies), injuries or skill, but no secondary in my memory from the Pats could defense the passes with the time the QBs are getting. I would love to be able to say exactly why the defense isn't getting the pressure it once did, but I can't pinpoint the exact cause.

As schemes are based on personnel/talent, I would not be inclined to point to poor scheming. I trust Belichick and Pees will do the most with what they have, so I am not expecting some radical defensive masterpiece to cure the present defensive problems. I do think it is possible that the rookies gaining experience, specifically Guyton and Mayo, may make the defensive more effective this season. Remember, with the complexity of the defensive schemes 1 player can drastically affect defensive performance (e.g., the linebacker problem post-Bruschi's stroke in 2005).

 

[SammyBlueCat]

This team is a very slow team. The scheme can not hide that fact.

 

[DaBruinz]

Put me in the not enough talent theory. We're getting older. And, also are
being decimated by injuries. Loss of A.Samuel has been significant. I think more
than many of us thought would happen.

Yes, the team has 4 starters and several back-ups on IR, but it doesn't have enough talent because you say so.

Yes, certain players such as Vrabel, Bruschi, and Harrison are getting older. But the team added a ton of talent in this year's draft. People need to wake up and remember that these players aren't all going to click out of TC. Some will take longer than others. That is LIFE.

If you knew that by the end of today's game the Pats would be without 7 of their starters and 4 of their primary back-ups, you are Nostradameus and you need to give everyone the winning lottery numbers..

 

[RayClay]

Remember from 01-04 when you got the sense we went into games with a schematic advantage? We self-scouted our own tendencies, we knew the other team's offensive and defensive weaknesses, and that all contributed to us making the big play in big moments because we knew ourselves and the other team so well.

Fast forward to now and the past 3 years, you get the sense that we either go into games evenly matched scheme-wise, or even <gasp> out-schemed. What I mean by this is offensively we basically use the same shot-gun formation over and over, the same 5-10 plays over and over, telegraph what we are doing, and rely on EXECUTION against an increasingly adaptive defense/opponent. Defensively, we seem to use the same weak schemes over and over, less creativity and scouting in how to attack another team's offensive line or how to make their key player disappear from the game plan.

It seems like nowadays our wins are due to individual plays resulting from talent, rather than scheme and putting the right player in the right spot due to scouting.

We don't have players on defense. With no Rodney and walking wounded and undrafted free agents playing we can't really afford to be exotic.

Our running backs have been injured a lot too, though we'll go run heavy if appropriate, even with Jarvis Benwa Kenobi Ellis, or whatever his name is.

 

[DaBruinz]

I can buy the injuries having an effect, but how about before Harrison and Thomas and Warren and Wilfork and Bruschi went down, when we were at full health, and still getting torched by lesser QB's in the first half of the season?

Was that due to talent or scheme issues?

Why does it have to be either of those? You seem to forget that there were some injury issues in camp as well. Also, it doesn't have to be SCHEME issues for the team to just be playing bad. And they were.

How about technique issues? You have Mayo, Guyton, Wheatley, and Wilhite all joining a pro team. The college game is DIFFERENT. Its not nearly as fast as the pros. They have techniques that need to be refined. That not TALENT. That is something that takes repitition. You have guys who are entering the most complex defense in the NFL today who have never played in the 3-4. That isn't a TALENT issue. I guess you could say its a scheme issue, but I think that is being too general.

As a whole, the team's psyche took a major hit when Brady went down. That affected their play. Also, you had starters who weren't there like NEAL.

This team has not been WHOLE all year and its silly to say that it was. This team is typically hitting its stride ride about now. But, right about now, they usually aren't missing such key starters as a Tom Brady or Adalius Thomas.

This year actually reminds me of Lemony Snicket's "A series of Unfortunate Events". And it started with Neal not being ready. That hurt the O-line because neither Hochstein nor Yates were ready to be the starter. Then Brady going down. Then Maroney, Morris and Jordan all withn a game of one another. Then Harrison. and so on. And so on.

Me? I am still astounded that the Pats are where they are today. Particularly with everything that has happened this year. You can sit there and try and slap a label on it or try and blame someone for it, but, in all honesty, its an excercise in futility. Because there are just too many things that have to be factored in.

 

[DaBruinz]

This team is a very slow team. The scheme can not hide that fact.

See. I have to disagree with that. I heard those dumb arse commentators saying that and I had to laugh because that is the farthest thing from the truth. This is NOT a slow defense. Nor a slow team. This defense has many very quick players on it. The problem is that they are still learning the defense so they look slow. Or they are making rookie mistakes and over-running plays.

And please don't use the Deion Branch play because I am still trying to figure out how a O-lineman got far enough down field so that he'd be able to blow up Mayo the way he did and not have it be an illegal player downfield.

 

[RayClay]

See. I have to disagree with that. I heard those dumb arse commentators saying that and I had to laugh because that is the farthest thing from the truth. This is NOT a slow defense. Nor a slow team. This defense has many very quick players on it. The problem is that they are still learning the defense so they look slow. Or they are making rookie mistakes and over-running plays.

And please don't use the Deion Branch play because I am still trying to figure out how a O-lineman got far enough down field so that he'd be able to blow up Mayo the way he did and not have it be an illegal player downfield.

Oh come on. You're last two posts sound like Baghdad Bob.

Lack of speed? What lack of speed?

Very many quick players? well cornerbacks are supposed to be quick. There's Hobbs.

Meriweather, Mayo. Outside of the relatively quick 300-350 lb. DL, where else do you see quick?

And speaking of the DL isn't it wonderful to have three seasoned backups who can step in and get something done.

When was the last time we had one at linebacker, Marty Moore? Matt Chatham?

 

[Deus Irae]

Oh come on. You're last two posts sound like Baghdad Bob.

Lack of speed? What lack of speed?

Very many quick players? well cornerbacks are supposed to be quick. There's Hobbs.

Meriweather, Mayo. Outside of the relatively quick 300-350 lb. DL, where else do you see quick?

Starters today:

Sanders: 4.6
Meriweather: 4.49
Wilhite: 4.38
Hobbs: 4.39 (Pro day), also reported at 4.46
Mayo: 4.54
Guyton: 4.47

And speaking of the DL isn't it wonderful to have three seasoned backups who can step in and get something done.

When was the last time we had one at linebacker, Marty Moore? Matt Chatham?

Last year, Rosevelt Colvin

 

[RayClay]

Starters today:

Sanders: 4.6
Meriweather: 4.49
Wilhite: 4.38
Hobbs: 4.39 (Pro day), also reported at 4.46
Mayo: 4.54
Guyton: 4.47




Last year, Rosevelt Colvin

Last year Roosevelt Colvin. That's beautiful.

So if you can find anybody on the team that ran a good 40, we're quick.

You know other teams have cornerbacks and safeties too. Plus unproven 4th rounders and free agents.

I'll have to agree with you that we have some fast players on defense.

Unfortunately, everybody else in the league has more.

 

[Deus Irae]

Last year Roosevelt Colvin. That's beautiful.

So if you can find anybody on the team that ran a good 40, we're quick.

You know other teams have cornerbacks and safeties too. Plus unproven 4th rounders and free agents.

I'll have to agree with you that we have some fast players on defense.

Unfortunately, everybody else in the league has more.

I'm not going to get involved in yet another game of "let's move the goalposts". You were wrong about the defensive speed and you were wrong about the veteran backup. I will point out a couple of things, though.

Wheatley (IR) ran a 4.37, Thomas (IR) ran a 4.5, Deltha O'Neal ran a 4.38.


Pittsburgh linebackers:

Woodley 4.74
Foote: 4.81
Farrior is 33 and I could not find Harrison's 40 time. New England has a faster linebacking corps that the Steelers do, in all likelihood.

 

[RayClay]

I'm not going to get involved in yet another game of "let's move the goalposts". You were wrong about the defensive speed and you were wrong about the veteran backup. I will point out a couple of things, though.

Wheatley (IR) ran a 4.37, Thomas (IR) ran a 4.5, Deltha O'Neal ran a 4.38.


Pittsburgh linebackers:

Woodley 4.74
Foote: 4.81
Farrior is 33 and I could not find Harrison's 40 time. So much for that "everybody else in the league has more" theory, huh?

You're right, we have an extremely fast defense.

I'm sure everyone agrees with you.

Harrison who? Do we have a player named Harrison on defense now?

Why not list Chris Slade's time?

 

[Deus Irae]

You're right, we have an extremely fast defense.

I'm sure everyone agrees with you.

Harrison who? Do we have a player named Harrison on defense now?

Why not list Chris Slade's time?

Harrison is the 4th Steeler linebacker, and what people agree with won't change the times. Your comment about the team speed was ill-thought and incorrect.

 

[RayClay]

Harrison is the 4th Steeler linebacker, and what people agree with won't change the times. Your comment about the team speed was ill-thought and incorrect.

Sorry, since you listed last year's pre-injury Colvin I thought you were listing the injured Harrison.

So we're comparing our Safeties and cornerbacks and one unproven free agent LB to Pittsburgh linebackes.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Why not list Seau and Bruschi's college forty times? I'm sure they're about the same now.

 

[RayClay]

LOL. I thought I was joking, but you are directly comparing our cornerbacks to Pittsburghs linebackers on speed.

 

[Deus Irae]

LOL. I thought I was joking, but you are directly comparing our cornerbacks to Pittsburghs linebackers on speed.

No I wasn't. Read again. I posted Mayo and Guyton in the previous, and I posted Thomas, Wheatley and O'Neal because they hadn't been in the first post, although two of the 3 are currently on IR. I then posted the two Steeler LB times I could find, pointed out that Farrior is 33, and noted that I couldn't find Harrison's time.

Your comment about speed is simply wrong with the current lineup, and I was using the Steelers linebackers to illustrate that.

 

[RayClay]

No I wasn't. Read again. I posted Mayo and Guyton in the previous, and I posted Thomas, Wheatley and O'Neal because they hadn't been in the first post, although two of the 3 are currently on IR. I then posted the two Steeler LB times I could find, pointed out that Farrior is 33, and noted that I couldn't find Harrison's time.

Your comment about speed is simply wrong with the current lineup, and I was using the Steelers linebackers to illustrate that.

Mayo's a rookie, I mentioned him. Guyton's a free agent. we're lucky we picked him up, but it mostly shows our total lack of depth at LB that he and two guys who were on a couch last week are playing lots.

Seems you aren't aware that Bruschi, Vrable and Thomas are our other three starters this year when healthy. I didn't see you drag up their college 40 times, if just for the nostalgia.

 

[Deus Irae]

Mayo's a rookie, I mentioned him. Guyton's a free agent. we're lucky we picked him up, but it mostly shows our total lack of depth at LB that he and two guys who were on a couch last week are playing lots.

Seems you aren't aware that Bruschi, Vrable and Thomas are our other three starters this year when healthy. I didn't see you drag up their college 40 times, if just for the nostalgia.

1.) It's Vrabel, not Crable (who's time I also didn't post)

2.) Do you really think Bruschi, Vrabel or Farrior (from the Steelers example) are as fast at this point in their careers as their college 40 times would lead us to believe?

3.) I posted Thomas' 40 in the follow up post.

As for the depth issue, Thomas and Woods went down, as did the rookie Crable. Exactly how deep do you think teams are in today's NFL?

 

[RayClay]

1.) It's Vrabel, not Crable (who's time I also didn't post)

2.) Do you really think Bruschi, Vrabel or Farrior (from the Steelers example) are as fast at this point in their careers as their college 40 times would lead us to believe?

3.) I posted Thomas' 40 in the follow up post.

As for the depth issue, Thomas and Woods went down, as did the rookie Crable. Exactly how deep do you think teams are in today's NFL?

Since they're all probably injured anyway (Vrabel has a chronic bad back) maybe we can replace them all with fast free agents who can't play so you can win your argument.

I'm more concerned with the functional lack of speed among our defensive starters at LB and nonexistent depth than I am of making nonsensical arguments.

The 40 times of whatever undrafted free agents we're forced to use because of lack of seasoned backups is irrelevant IMO.

 

[Deus Irae]

Since they're all probably injured anyway (Vrabel has a chronic bad back) maybe we can replace them all with fast free agents who can't play so you can win your argument.

I'm more concerned with the functional lack of speed among our defensive starters at LB and nonexistent depth than I am of making nonsensical arguments.

The 40 times of whatever undrafted free agents we're forced to use because of lack of seasoned backups is irrelevant IMO.

I'm not replacing anyone, I'm pointing out what's on the roster. Yes, if we just ignore the facts, RayClay, you have a point. However, I'm not ignoring the facts just so you can make a nonexistent point. Linebacker speed is not the problem, just as it wasn't when the linebacker corps was running Bruschi, Cox, Phifer, Johnson and Vrabel out on the field. The combination of declining skills, inexperience, injury and lack of cohesion is "the problem" at linebacker.