Would Weis be an upgrade over McDaniels as OC?

[Rob0729]

Agreed. Weis has won 3 superbowls while McDaniels offense has just put up staggering numbers. Granted you need a defense to win games too but, Weis was able to scored enough to win close games and big games with a less talented offense.

I still people overrate the Super Bowl wins as the differentiator. If the offense in any of those Super Bowls won or lost the game, I would agree. The Pats scored 10 offensive points vs. the Rams in the first Super Bowl. Does anyone think that would have been enough to beat the Greatest Show on Turf if the defense didn't hold up their end of the deal and totally shut down the Rams for three quarters? Or how about 2 weeks earlier where the offense also scored 10 point and the special teams scored 14 points? Or would the legend of Brady and his last clutch drives in the Super Bowl been even more enhanced last February if either Samuel or Meriweather held onto sure interceptions on the follow his TD drive? Or would 27 offensive points been enough agains the Colts if the defense didn't surrender 35 points in the second half of the AFC Championships the year before?

Defense and special teams have played big roles in many of the Pats' playoff wins and losses including the Super Bowls during the Belichick area that I don't know if you can compare any of the coordinators based solely on their Super Bowl rings. It is like Elway. He was never compared one of the greatest of all time until he won two rings. But he didn't get any better those Super Bowl years. The players around him did. Personally, I am more impressed with him during the years he got some very average talent into the Super Bowl and lost than the years he had Terrell Davis and a strong defense to help him win one.

 

[maverick4]

McDaniels is like the Marino of coordinators, sexy stats but he chokes in big games and stubbornly doesn't adjust. He goes into most games with good game plans but if it doesn't work we are toast. He doesn't like deception, he will flat out telegraph to the other team what he is doing and dare them to stop it, and most times they cannot.

That being said, Weis is a major upgrade. Weis is not concerned about the sexy stats, he wants to win. That means setting up a defense with some plays in order to fool them later. Self scouting yourself in order to create more deception later on in the season. Make key adjustments in-game. Get the big play at the big moment, time and time again. Secure the game winning drive to seal the game or win it.

The argument is like Brady vs Manning from 01-04. The guy with the rings and the consistent playoff success, or the arrogant douchebag with the sexy stats who sucks it up in big moments.

 

[Laurence Maroney's Dreads]

Let's say Weis doesn't come back AND McDaniels leaves...who is in line after JM? Will it be BB doing the OC stuff again for a season while coaching up an assistant like what happened in 05, or would we maybe bring in someone new?

Who knows? I see three possibilities, assuming (and this is a HUGE assumption at this point) that Josh McDaniels leaves and Weis doesn't return. Firstly, Belichick himself runs the offense for a couple years until someone in the organization is ready to step up. The second possibility is that someone like Dante Scarnecchia gets the nod - he's been involved in this Patriots offense forever. The third of course is the introduction of an offensive coordinator from outside of the organization, namely Mike Martz. I know Belichick seems to love the guy for some reason...

 

[Sporin]

Id be fine with keeping McDaniels over Weis, our offense has been great with McDaniels no need for a change there. If he leaves though for a HC position Weis would be on the top of my list for McDaniels replacement.

x2 agreed

 

[spacecrime]

McDaniels is like the Marino of coordinators, sexy stats but he chokes in big games and stubbornly doesn't adjust. He goes into most games with good game plans but if it doesn't work we are toast. He doesn't like deception, he will flat out telegraph to the other team what he is doing and dare them to stop it, and most times they cannot.

That being said, Weis is a major upgrade. Weis is not concerned about the sexy stats, he wants to win. That means setting up a defense with some plays in order to fool them later. Self scouting yourself in order to create more deception later on in the season. Make key adjustments in-game. Get the big play at the big moment, time and time again. Secure the game winning drive to seal the game or win it.

The argument is like Brady vs Manning from 01-04. The guy with the rings and the consistent playoff success, or the arrogant douchebag with the sexy stats who sucks it up in big moments.

Good read, and good analogy.

It was the refusal (or inability) to adjust in the superbowl that turned me off on McDaniels. Worse is that he hasn't seemed to change. This "my way right or wrong" crap is so much like Mike Martz, which is why I hope the other poster is wrong and we never end up with him as a coordinator.

 

[Deus Irae]

Some points that are often missed, ignored or downplayed:

1.) Under McDaniels, A team with Reche Caldwell as the #1 receiver was 7th in scoring in the NFL.

2.) The team has, to date, never failed to make the playoffs with McDaniels as the O.C.

3.) McDaniels will be a hotter coaching commidity than Weis ever was.

4.) McDaniels was the O.C. for the only team in NFL history to go 16-0 in the regular season.

5.) McDaniels was the O.C. for the #1 scoring offense in NFL history.

6.) McDaniels has developed Cassel into the player that some people here actually want to keep over Brady.

Weis will be a definite downgrade if he replaces McDaniels, to my way of thinking.

 

[belichickaholic]

What about Randy? How will that go down? Something like the clash of the Titans I would think.

 

[JoePats]

I realize that the OP isn't advotating a demotion of McDaniels but...

Hypothetically, if McDaniels were to not get a HC job and Charlie wanted to come back, he would not take McDaniels' place, but rather be the Asst HC of something like BB was when he got fired from the Browns. So it's kid of irrelevant.

I would take Weis though.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Some points that are often missed, ignored or downplayed:

1.) Under McDaniels, A team with Reche Caldwell as the #1 receiver was 7th in scoring in the NFL.

2.) The team has, to date, never failed to make the playoffs with McDaniels as the O.C.

3.) McDaniels will be a hotter coaching commidity than Weis ever was.

4.) McDaniels was the O.C. for the only team in NFL history to go 16-0 in the regular season.

5.) McDaniels was the O.C. for the #1 scoring offense in NFL history.

6.) McDaniels has developed Cassel into the player that some people here actually want to keep over Brady.

Weis will be a definite downgrade if he replaces McDaniels, to my way of thinking.

I'm interested to know why it is you feel that there's no way that Weis would have been as productive with Brady and Moss, Brady and Welker etc.?

I'm not sure I'm willing to give McDaniels the majority of credit for all those accomplishments either. I'm certainly not taking points off, but I think it makes sense to look beyond just the gross numbers.

McDaniels also has no Super Bowls to his credit as OC. Of course, it would make as little sense to blame him for that as it would to give him credit for all the accomplishments either -reality is much more complex than that.

I'd think most would look beyond an overly simplistic analysis such as that.

 

[maverick4]

Wow since when did Pats fans become a bunch of Colts-sounding fans?

From 01-04 would any of you take Manning over Brady given the choice?

Brady had steady but not amazing stats, came through under pressure in big games, won multiple rings. Manning had the ridiculous stats, choked multiple times. People dismissed Brady's greatness by saying it was his defense, they defended Manning by blaming it on the O-line, the defense, everyone else but the QB.

It is the EXACT SAME thing going on here between Weis vs. McDaniels.

How can some of you choose Brady over Manning in the 01-04 argument, and then in this thread start babbling like a bunch of Colts fans over stats when talking about McDaniels vs Weiss. Didn't we of all fan bases learn how the big sexy stats don't necessarily mean one guy is better than the other?

McDaniels is like Mike Martz to me, they both act like/think they are the greatest, they will openly telegraph the opposing unit that 'this is what we are doing, you are not going to stop it'. Most of the time it works great, but their arrogance is a major achilles heel in big games, the same way the arrogance of Manning and Marino is a major reason why they are hall of fame chokers.

The one year Weiss had great offensive talent, in 04, that offense was dominant, even though we had a 7th-rd receiver in Givens and another smurf in Branch and a cast-off OL. I would argue that every offense McDaniels worked with had superior talent to anything Weiss had to work with from 2001-2003 and possibly even 2004. Ever since McDaniels has taken over we have blown tons of high draft picks on offensive players, which we never did under Weiss except to take TE.

Someone please give me an argument over which coordinator is better without sounding like a stats-obsessed Colts fan. You will never convince me that Manning is better than Brady, or that A-Rod is better than Jeter by using stats.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Someone please give me an argument over which coordinator is better without sounding like a stats-obsessed Colts fan. You will never convince me that Manning is better than Brady, or that A-Rod is better than Jeter by using stats.

I was thinking the same thing about those stats - especially the TD record.

Seems like once, long ago, we'd much prefer having Super Bowls over records such as that.

Now the fact that such a record occured on McDaniels watch, makes him a better OC?

I don't get it. Let's just say, that's not how I look at football - and if others do, so be it.

But of course, wouldn't you have to be able to say that Weis's WRs were at least AS GOOD as Moss and Welker in order to give McDaniels an edge over Weis for that? And if they weren't - and Weis helped win Super Bowls even with "groceries" that weren't as good, doesn't he deserve more credit?

Honestly, the only reason I'm actually giving McDaniels enough credit to have me wavering on "Even" is because of what McDaniels did THIS year with a backup QB, 4th string RB, etc... NOT because of the stupid TD record - which DOES sound a lot like Colts Fan rationalization.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm interested to know why it is you feel that there's no way that Weis would have been as productive with Brady and Moss, Brady and Welker etc.?

I'm not sure I'm willing to give McDaniels the majority of credit for all those accomplishments either. I'm certainly not taking points off, but I think it makes sense to look beyond just the gross numbers.

McDaniels also has no Super Bowls to his credit as OC. Of course, it would make as little sense to blame him for that as it would to give him credit for all the accomplishments either -reality is much more complex than that.

I'd think most would look beyond an overly simplistic analysis such as that.

When you define the terms, you control the answer. If one were to judge by Super Bowls, Weiss would 'win'. If one were to judge by offensive production, McDaniels would 'win'. I pointed out the Caldwell year because of the "McDaniels had better talent" argument.

The reality is that there are only a few limited ways to judge the 'better' coordinator, especially if the judge is not on the field during games and practices and doesn't see what occurs in meetings and the like. One can use the numbers, one can just "know", or one can fudge some combination of both. All such analysis will be "simplistic" to someone who doesn't agree with either the method or the result.

I've seen McDaniels take an offense led by Reche Caldwell, stocked with receivers the likes of Doug Gabriel, and get that offense to the #7 scoring offense in the league.

I've seen McDaniels as the offensive coordinator of a team that lost Tom Brady in the first game of the season and is still in playoff contention.

I've seen McDaniels as the offensive coordinator of a team that scored the most points in NFL history.

In other words, I've seen McDaniels do the job with a lesser group of talents, with a tremendous group of talents, and also with adversity of a type that Weis never had to face.

I add up everything and I come up with Weis being a downgrade. Others will disagree. Opposing NFL teams will chase after McDaniels for head coaching positions, and not Weis. Belichick will not help with the debate by giving us his opinion. Such is life on a message board.

 

[Frezo]

When you define the terms, you control the answer.

Ahhh, Grasshopper, also remember, "The truth is merely a reflection of our own perception."

I have seen Weis as an offensive coordinator turn a 6th round pick into a genuine Super Star.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ahhh, Grasshopper, also remember, "The truth is merely a reflection of our own perception."

I have seen Weis as an offensive coordinator turn a 6th round pick into a genuine Super Star.

But, Sensei, with all due respect:

I have seen McDaniels as an offensive coordinator take that genuine Super Star to even higher heights, while also taking a 7th round pick that hadn't started a game since high school and turning him into a two time winner of the AFC Offensive Player of the Week in less than one full season as a starter.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

The poll is split pretty evenly as I write this and I can't disagree that this is a close call.

But rather than wimp out and say that they're pretty much the same, I'm going to take a very simplistic view, acknowledging that there are all sorts of variables and external factors and yada yada yada that make this an unfair way to decide it, but...

Weis as OC for BB: three rings
Josh as OC for BB: no rings.

 

[JoeSixPat]

When you define the terms, you control the answer. If one were to judge by Super Bowls, Weiss would 'win'. If one were to judge by offensive production, McDaniels would 'win'. I pointed out the Caldwell year because of the "McDaniels had better talent" argument.

The reality is that there are only a few limited ways to judge the 'better' coordinator, especially if the judge is not on the field during games and practices and doesn't see what occurs in meetings and the like. One can use the numbers, one can just "know", or one can fudge some combination of both. All such analysis will be "simplistic" to someone who doesn't agree with either the method or the result.

I've seen McDaniels take an offense led by Reche Caldwell, stocked with receivers the likes of Doug Gabriel, and get that offense to the #7 scoring offense in the league.

I've seen McDaniels as the offensive coordinator of a team that lost Tom Brady in the first game of the season and is still in playoff contention.

I've seen McDaniels as the offensive coordinator of a team that scored the most points in NFL history.

In other words, I've seen McDaniels do the job with a lesser group of talents, with a tremendous group of talents, and also with adversity of a type that Weis never had to face.

I add up everything and I come up with Weis being a downgrade. Others will disagree. Opposing NFL teams will chase after McDaniels for head coaching positions, and not Weis. Belichick will not help with the debate by giving us his opinion. Such is life on a message board.

So you're saying Weis, with Brady, Moss, Welker et al wouldn't have been as good as McDaniels?

I've seen all the same things you have - but I have to say, I do think Weis would have done more with the same crew

 

[Deus Irae]

So you're saying Weis, with Brady, Moss, Welker et al wouldn't have been as good as McDaniels?

No, I'm saying that, taking all the data I have available to me at the current time, I think that Josh McDaniels is a better offensive coordinator than Charlie Weis was when he was with the Patriots in that same position.

I've seen all the same things you have - but I have to say, I do think Weis would have done more with the same crew

Not exactly a surprise there.

 

[Frezo]

But, Sensei, with all due respect:

I have seen McDaniels as an offensive coordinator take that genuine Super Star to even higher heights, while also taking a 7th round pick that hadn't started a game since high school and turning him into a two time winner of the AFC Offensive Player of the Week in less than one full season as a starter.

Ugh. Many truths fall from the tongue of the Irae. Still, the great god of the Buffalo prophesize a time where without Tall Brady the Josh and the Charlie are remembered only as JAGs. With only the harvest of this year to judge many warriors would say that the Great Book of McDaniel is still to be written.

 

[BradyManny]

The poll is split pretty evenly as I write this and I can't disagree that this is a close call.

But rather than wimp out and say that they're pretty much the same, I'm going to take a very simplistic view, acknowledging that there are all sorts of variables and external factors and yada yada yada that make this an unfair way to decide it, but...

Weis as OC for BB: three rings
Josh as OC for BB: no rings.

Let me both agree and disagree with you...first for the disagree...

The Patriots would have won the Super Bowl the last two seasons if its defense could have prevented long drives in the final minutes of games. The Patriots have been involved in 4 Super Bowls, and one AFCCG that was a defacto SB. The determining factor in the outcome of the game was largely which team had a chance to work with the ball last (I exclude the desperation drives against Colts and Giants as there wasn't enough time to mount a real attack).

The Patriots could have 0 rings right now, they could have 5 rings. To me, that's not an indicator of McD and Weis. It was circumstance.

As for the agree portion, I can't quite leave McD out of the blame chart for the SB loss. Or Belichick for that matter. It's possible, for instance, that if they had run Moss on slants to the inside earlier in the game (as they did in what should have been a game winning drive to go up 14-10), then we'd be reigning champs right now. Weis seemingly always had a way to counter the opposing team's strength. And just as Brady or Vinateiri are clutch players, I view Weis as a clutch coordinator. I don't know yet if McD works as well under pressure.

On a game to game basis, I take McD, hands down. What the guy has done in the last year and a half is astounding. What he's done with Matt Cassel as QB is a remarkable achievement. 1:30 left on the clock and no timeouts, I'd probably take Weis. If McD leaves for a head coaching job - which he's more than earned, but if he's smart, might not take just yet - then I would imagine Weis coming back is a reasonable fit.

 

[maverick4]

The defense behind McDaniels has been dominant. Since you are all so obsessed with the stats our defensive stats and rankings the past recent years have been excellent.

When Weis was OC the defense gave up late points and the offense still had to win it, and we did. Under McDaniels given the same chances, we have failed every single time in the big game despite having a great defense.

How can some of you have been for Brady over Manning from 01-04, yet now do a complete 180 and pick McDaniels over Weiss for the exact opposite reason.

From 01-04 I would still want Brady over Manning, forget the stats. Most of us would take Jeter over A-Rod. And for similar reasons you take Weiss over McDaniels.
McDaniels = Marino, A-Rod, Manning of OC's