Pete Carroll talking about Cassel on Sports Center

[Fanfrom1960]

Carroll, Cassel's old college coach, of course, had an astounded, like, "how about what Matt Cassel is doing" (but not totally surprised) take about Matt on tonight's sports center. Among other things, he said for a while at USC it was really neck and neck between Leinart and Cassel. You couldn't find any fault with what Leinart ended up accomplishing, but what if Cassel had been the starter? He said he thinks Cassel will get paid a lot of money but that the Patriots would really try to keep him. Carroll concluded with saying that Cassel is very competitive and he knows that Leinart isn't playing right now and he is (said in a wry way).

 

[PATRIOT64]

Carroll, Cassel's old college coach, of course, put on an astounded (but not totally surprised) take about what Matt is doing this year on tonight's sports center. Among other things, he said for a while at USC it was really neck and neck between Leinart and Cassel. You couldn't find any fault with what Leinart ended up accomplishing, but what if Cassel had been the starter? He said he thinks Cassel will get paid a lot of money but that the Patriots would really try to keep him. Carroll concluded with saying that Cassel is very competitive and he knows that Leinart isn't playing right now and he is (said in a wry way).

Leinart was a very special and talented Quarterback at the College level and I don't know if Cassel would have done any better than Leinart did there,Its not easy to have been better than Leinarts accomplishments at USC

While the jury is still out on Leinart's career as a professional NFL QB ,right now it appears Cassel has adapted better to the pro game and Leinart can't beat out a 38 year old QB that just happens to be on his way to surpassing Marino in total passing yards in 1 season (Brees is on his way as well)

 

[Gunnails]

I am so glad the Jets went Dbrickashaw Ferguson, over Leinhart.

 

[xmarkd400x]

I don't like how college decisions get vindicated by pro success (by the media). The rational seems to be "Cassel looks like a better pro, so Cassel should have started in college." College is a different game, and the players were in a different position in their growth. I don't think Carroll made the wrong decision.

 

[Ghost of Ben Dreith]

I am so glad the Jets went Dbrickashaw Ferguson, over Leinhart.

You might not be that happy when Favre rots away or quits again. Ferguson is anything but a worthy early 1st round pick, and the book is far from closed on Leinart. Remember, the QB starting in front of him may well get MVP.

 

[upstater1]

I question Carroll's decision to take Leinhart over Cassel, for a number of reasons. But, in the end, USC won regardless.

First off, coaches do blow the QB choice decision all the time. Paterno picked Morelli over Clark, Lloyd Carr had Brady splitting time with Henson, and I can name for you a dozen other examples. Hostetler was told he couldn't play. Right now, I question UConn's choice of QB. etc.

Second, when Carroll was interviewed about Cassel a couple months ago, he knocked Matt. He said Cassel had all the tools but he was not good at keeping his composure in the pocket.

How would Carroll know? It's obvious the Patriots had the faith in him that Carroll didn't have. At the very least, Carroll's judgment was rash.

 

[Gwedd]

Folks talk about Cassel playing behind 2 Heisman winners, being a backup for them, but in fact, he played behind 3. When he first came to New England, he was behind Doug Flutie.

Cassel once commented about it during an interview, though I can't remember where I saw/read it. He said, and I am paraphrasing here, "GREAT! I'm in the pros, I am out from behind these two guys. What happens? I get to New England and I am behind Doug Flutie, another Heisman winner. It was like that movie Groundhog day."

Just shows again how good of a team mate, and a consumate professional he is.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Bill took a flyer on Cassel based on the assumption you don't get sniffed at by USC unless you have all the tools. And for this system the guy who didn't make it and hung in there leaning under a pro style coach anyway is a lot better fit. Lienart didn't get jobbed by a brilliant Warner. Warner was brought in because Lienart struggled, and part of the reason he did was lack of work ethic. Not an uncommon occurrance among first round QB's who succeeded in an environment where they limit work in and out of season and you succeed based on superior talent and recruitment compared to lots of guys who will never see another snap once they graduate. That builds an ego that can be difficult to harness. The NFL is a system/scheme/coaching driven league. College is a moreso a raw talent/recruiting/schedule driven league.

 

[PatsFan2]

Bill took a flyer on Cassel based on the assumption you don't get sniffed at by USC unless you have all the tools. And for this system the guy who didn't make it and hung in there leaning under a pro style coach anyway is a lot better fit. Lienart didn't get jobbed by a brilliant Warner. Warner was brought in because Lienart struggled, and part of the reason he did was lack of work ethic. Not an uncommon occurrance among first round QB's who succeeded in an environment where they limit work in and out of season and you succeed based on superior talent and recruitment compared to lots of guys who will never see another snap once they graduate. That builds an ego that can be difficult to harness. The NFL is a system/scheme/coaching driven league. College is a moreso a raw talent/recruiting/schedule driven league.

Excellents points.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I question Carroll's decision to take Leinhart over Cassel, for a number of reasons. But, in the end, USC won regardless.

First off, coaches do blow the QB choice decision all the time. Paterno picked Morelli over Clark, Lloyd Carr had Brady splitting time with Henson, and I can name for you a dozen other examples. Hostetler was told he couldn't play. Right now, I question UConn's choice of QB. etc.

Second, when Carroll was interviewed about Cassel a couple months ago, he knocked Matt. He said Cassel had all the tools but he was not good at keeping his composure in the pocket.

How would Carroll know? It's obvious the Patriots had the faith in him that Carroll didn't have. At the very least, Carroll's judgment was rash.

I've never heard Pete knock Matt and in fact he's always been a supporter. He said one of Matt's characteristics at that juncture was he could get ramped up pretty good, and Matt has admitted he had to learn to channel his enthusiasm. But Pete always said he lost out as a starter by relative coin flips.

I'm sure Pete, who has no wallflower ego himself is a little stung by what has transpired where his actual starters find themselves lately...

 

[Deus Irae]

I question Carroll's decision to take Leinhart over Cassel, for a number of reasons. But, in the end, USC won regardless.

First off, coaches do blow the QB choice decision all the time. Paterno picked Morelli over Clark, Lloyd Carr had Brady splitting time with Henson, and I can name for you a dozen other examples. Hostetler was told he couldn't play. Right now, I question UConn's choice of QB. etc.

Second, when Carroll was interviewed about Cassel a couple months ago, he knocked Matt. He said Cassel had all the tools but he was not good at keeping his composure in the pocket.

How would Carroll know? It's obvious the Patriots had the faith in him that Carroll didn't have. At the very least, Carroll's judgment was rash.

There's a world of difference between the college games and the pro games, as the success rate of Heisman winners helps to demonstrate. Besides the obvious maturity difference between a college freshman and a man who's four year older, there's the difference in opposing talent and complexity of scheme. I can't say Carroll chose wrongly when I wasn't there to compare the two at that stage of their careers.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Bill took a flyer on Cassel based on the assumption you don't get sniffed at by USC unless you have all the tools. And for this system the guy who didn't make it and hung in there leaning under a pro style coach anyway is a lot better fit. Lienart didn't get jobbed by a brilliant Warner. Warner was brought in because Lienart struggled, and part of the reason he did was lack of work ethic. Not an uncommon occurrance among first round QB's who succeeded in an environment where they limit work in and out of season and you succeed based on superior talent and recruitment compared to lots of guys who will never see another snap once they graduate. That builds an ego that can be difficult to harness. The NFL is a system/scheme/coaching driven league. College is a moreso a raw talent/recruiting/schedule driven league.

Not quite. Based on the private workout that they had their own scout watch (by all indications, Cassel was nailing pretty much every throw), they went back and watched what little game tape there was of Cassel. And all of that told them that they had a guy who had the raw tools needed for success.

The real leap of faith, of course, was leaving Cassel as Brady's only backup the first half of 2006. In any case, the small leap of faith they took in drafting Cassel was based on a lot more than an "assumption."

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Not quite. Based on the private workout that they had their own scout watch (by all indications, Cassel was nailing pretty much every throw), they went back and watched what little game tape there was of Cassel. And all of that told them that they had a guy who had the raw tools needed for success.

The real leap of faith, of course, was leaving Cassel as Brady's only backup the first half of 2006. In any case, the small leap of faith they took in drafting Cassel was based on a lot more than an "assumption."

But the assumption was what even led to them considering it. Bill talked to Pete after he saw the tape, whose opinion unlike some here he is quite solicitous of (as is Kraft) and he got glowing recomendations on the kids intangibles and grit and how close the choice was for Pete talent wise. Their own scout was going to watch those workouts either way because that's what we pay him to do - check every senior on the roster whether he played or not for a shot at a diamond in the rough - especially at the marquee outlets. Otherwise that tape is no different than all the ones compiled at the combine, an event Bill has little practical use for other than as an opportunity for face time with guys he's already identified as targets of interest based on entirely on game film which didn't exist in Matt's case. Had Pete said great prospect but just didn't pan out, Bill would have thrown the scripted workout tape in the circular file. They all have tools...most can't manage them to advantage because they lack intangibles.

 

[upstater1]

I've never heard Pete knock Matt and in fact he's always been a supporter. He said one of Matt's characteristics at that juncture was he could get ramped up pretty good, and Matt has admitted he had to learn to channel his enthusiasm. But Pete always said he lost out as a starter by relative coin flips.

I'm sure Pete, who has no wallflower ego himself is a little stung by what has transpired where his actual starters find themselves lately...

He said this the week after Brady's injury on the Jim Rome radio show. He most definitely knocked him in my view. It wasn't an outright criticism, but he so much as said that the reason they went with Leinhart instead is that Cassel did not have the same composure, and when Rome specifically asked what he meant, Carroll said he had a tendency to panic and not go through his progressions.

 

[upstater1]

There's a world of difference between the college games and the pro games, as the success rate of Heisman winners helps to demonstrate. Besides the obvious maturity difference between a college freshman and a man who's four year older, there's the difference in opposing talent and complexity of scheme. I can't say Carroll chose wrongly when I wasn't there to compare the two at that stage of their careers.

The thing is, you have to give a kid a chance. I thought Carroll was pretty dismissive at the time. If you put a guy in and he doesn't seem to have the chops, then you pull him right away, do you really learn much about him?

How easy is it to take over a USC offense early in the season when you're facing inferior competition? That has to do a lot for a QB's comfortability, doesn't it? From listening to Carroll, I thought he should have just left it alone and explained that Leinhart won the battle, and then he won the Heisman. That's a good enough explanation. He didn't need to knock Cassel.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm sure Pete, who has no wallflower ego himself is a little stung by what has transpired where his actual starters find themselves lately...

Well, Palmer's still the best of the quarterbacks. He is simply hurt.

As for Leinart, I started to get into this in an earlier post on this thread but changed my mind. I'll do it now:

Leinart was a tremendous college quarterback. Given how well he played, I don't think anyone can really fault Carroll's decision to start him over Cassel. However, one of the big questions about Leinart coming out of college was arm strength, with questions about him being able to throw the sideline outs and long lobs, and those throws are a lot more important in the NFL than they are in college. Despite what a lot of people on this site were insisting to be the case during training camp, Cassel's arm is more than capable of making all the throws needed in the NFL.

Also, I'm a believer in a theory about NFL quarterbacks that I've cobbled together over the years. My theory is that, for most quarterbacks, the first 1.5 - 2 seasons on the NFL field will make or break a quarterback. By that, I mean that the habits formed in the formative games are very difficult to unlearn and, also, that when the NFL system is in complete conflict with the system the QB prospect was running as a junior/senior in college, that prospect is at a huge disadvantage because his 'imprint' days are spent trying to completely undo all previous conditioning. I look at David Carr, for example, and I see a player who was mentally broken by the beating suffered in Houston. Steve McNair, on the other hand, was able to learn the game from the sidelines, so he was ready to deal with the game once he hit the field.

By sitting for a while, and learning the Patriots style of offense without getting beaten to a pulp, Cassel has had the NFL game instilled into him to the point where it was instinctive and just needed honing by actual game experience. Leinart broke into the league under a lesser coaching staff and that's likely to make for a huge difference throughout his carreer.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Well, Palmer's still the best of the quarterbacks. He is simply hurt.

As for Leinart, I started to get into this in an earlier post on this thread but changed my mind. I'll do it now:

Leinart was a tremendous college quarterback. Given how well he played, I don't think anyone can really fault Carroll's decision to start him over Cassel. However, one of the big questions about Leinart coming out of college was arm strength, with questions about him being able to throw the sideline outs and long lobs, and those throws are a lot more important in the NFL than they are in college. Despite what a lot of people on this site were insisting to be the case during training camp, Cassel's arm is more than capable of making all the throws needed in the NFL.

Also, I'm a believer in a theory about NFL quarterbacks that I've cobbled together over the years. My theory is that, for most quarterbacks, the first 1.5 - 2 seasons on the NFL field will make or break a quarterback. By that, I mean that the habits formed in the formative games are very difficult to unlearn. I look at David Carr, for example, and I see a player who was mentally broken by the beating suffered in Houston. Steve McNair, on the other hand, was able to learn the game from the sidelines, so he was ready to deal with the game once he hit the field.

By sitting for a while, and learning the Patriots style of offense without getting beaten to a pulp, Cassel has had the NFL game instilled into him to the point where it was instinctive and just needed honing by actual game experience. Leinart broke into the league under a lesser coaching staff and that's likely to make for a huge difference throughout his carreer.

Couple of things though. Palmer is not part of the solution in Cincy which tells me he's part of the problem. Doesn't have the capacity to lead or get dysfunctional guys to follow him. In fact he's prone to mixing it up with them and pointing fingers at them or management. Brady leaned how to succeed inspite of dysfunction at Michigan, and the lessons came from within so he was able to carry them forward here. That's why he was able to quietly and seemlessly make this his team even as Drew (whom many of the veteran players wanted to support out of sense of loyalty) loomed on the sidelines and scowled his way through meetings. Guys gravitate to Tom (the old women want to date him and guys want to be him) and want to run through walls for him.

Leinart is a Hollywood boy who embraced celebrity before even attempting to grasp the pro game. Lousy work ethic because he hadn't needed to develop one at USC. Neither he or Matt distinguished themselves prior to the coin flip, which he won, but from there USC marched as it does and he assumed he was a big part of that equation ergo... That was Drew's problem in a nutshell, a preconceived notion that they achieved based on their own talent and they resist coaching to the contrary. Some guys don't have a shot at being well coached, too, but by and large with highly touted first round picks there exists an ego management situation out of the gate.

Granted they all benefit from a red shirt season but as Bill says it's not a given in the NFL and rookies who assume it is are often in for a rude awakening. They do want the #1 immediate starters money so you get what comes with the package. Matt Ryan seems to be dealing with it pretty well. I think it's because he expected he could get killed or fail miserably if he didn't show early signs of being a highly coachable team player.