Paging unoriginal - O-line grades

[unoriginal]

Up until the other night I said that Koppen was our best OL. I have never seen an OC jacked up and knocked back 2 yards by a NT the way Koppen was by Williams.

Evidently Williams saw something with Koppen which allowed him to get under Koppens pads and knock him back. That is the only way he could have done what he did.

I'll say that it was the most impressive technique execution that I have seen from a NT in a very long time.

Koppen has had problems from NTs for a long while. This year Kris Jenkins in the Jets game was driving him backwards quite a bit, and I also felt he was subpar against the Chiefs two tackles as well.

But this phenominon is not unusual for centers, who tend to be the smallest members of the line, and who also have one of the their hands tied up by the act of snapping the ball.

Koppen coming out of college was rated as a smart but weak prospect who'd have difficulty blocking superior athletes, a career backup type a la Russ Hochstein, and while he's exceeded expectations he also frequently plays to type.

 

[unoriginal]

Having said that, when teams pressure the tackles, you can usually chip a TE in there. What can the Pats do about inside pressure like this - is it up to the RB to help there?

On passing plays, yes. You can also move the pocket and run boots, but again, teams are lining up in wide techs with their defensive ends so they're hard to reach without good play action.

On running plays, a good blocking fullback can really help the interior out. But I'd call Evans a jack-of-all-trades type, which is just as well since he's our only fullback.

 

[cavtroop]

On passing plays, yes. You can also move the pocket and run boots, but again, teams are lining up in wide techs with their defensive ends so they're hard to reach without good play action.

On running plays, a good blocking fullback can really help the interior out. But I'd call Evans a jack-of-all-trades type, which is just as well since he's our only fullback.

So in your opinion, why aren't the pats doing this? Or are then, and just ineffective at it (moving the pocket, etc).?

I fear that the book is now out on the interior of our OL, and we'll continue to get killed up the middle unless something changes. Is Ross/Neil that much better than Yates to help in this regard?

 

[unoriginal]

So in your opinion, why aren't the pats doing this? Or are then, and just ineffective at it (moving the pocket, etc).?

I fear that the book is now out on the interior of our OL, and we'll continue to get killed up the middle unless something changes. Is Ross/Neil that much better than Yates to help in this regard?

They can't run boots because (a) the wide techs from the defensive ends mean the offensive tackles can't reach them, so the ends can either "set the corner" on the boot or else sack the QB and (b) when we keep tight ends like David Thomas in to pass block, they can't block the same defensive ends once they reach them.

"Reaching" in this case would mean establishing a block on the defensive end's outside shoulder. A tackle like Kaczur, assuming a boot right against a 9 tech defensive end, would have to traverse a combined C and D gap, cross the end's face, and then begin pushing the end outside-in while ensuring the end never got deep enough to interrupt the QB's boot.

The only way to reach these guys is with a convincing run fake, which would cause the defensive end to abandon upfield rush and crash down the line of scrimmage. A tackle could then bucket-step around the end and grab his outside shoulder, establishing the primary block on the boot. The backside guard, usually, will pull with the run fake, then shuffle off-tackle in front of the QB's boot to pick up any linebackers or stunts. But none of that works if your run fakes suck, which is to say, if you're not running the ball very effectively, which at times we do not.

And yes, I would consider Neal superior in all aspects to Yates, based on what I've seen.

 

[cavtroop]

They can't run boots because (a) the wide techs from the defensive ends mean the offensive tackles can't reach them, so the ends can either "set the corner" on the boot or else sack the QB and (b) when we keep tight ends like David Thomas in to pass block, they can't block the same defensive ends once they reach them.

"Reaching" in this case would mean establishing a block on the defensive end's outside shoulder. A tackle like Kaczur, assuming a boot right against a 9 tech defensive end, would have to traverse a combined C and D gap, cross the end's face, and then begin pushing the end outside-in while ensuring the end never got deep enough to interrupt the QB's boot.

The only way to reach these guys is with a convincing run fake, which would cause the defensive end to abandon upfield rush and crash down the line of scrimmage. A tackle could then bucket-step around the end and grab his outside shoulder, establishing the primary block on the boot. The backside guard, usually, will pull with the run fake, then shuffle off-tackle in front of the QB's boot to pick up any linebackers or stunts. But none of that works if your run fakes suck, which is to say, if you're not running the ball very effectively, which at times we do not.

And yes, I would consider Neal superior in all aspects to Yates, based on what I've seen.

Thanks, appreciate the analysis. So in short, we can't run fake very well because we don't run very well, so the DE isn't likely to bite on the play-action. Hence, no boots. And our TE aren't great blockers, leaving the T on an island. On top of that, Yates blows (I can see that with my untrained eye) and for some reason Koppen is getting killed this year man-up on DT.

Ouch

edit: PS - I love threads like this. Having not ever played football, this is a great way to learn more about the game. I'm beginning to really love the X's and O's aspect of football, so I soak this stuff up whenever I can find it. Thanks again.

 

[unoriginal]

And our TE aren't great blockers, leaving the T on an island.

Not quite what I was trying to explain. Because our tight ends aren't great blockers, we pass block against wide alignments with a short line. This causes our tackles to get width in their pass splits, moving them away from the guards, which puts the GUARDS on an island because they're not used to/not good at blocking in space.

They play without leverage because they now have to worry about being run around. It's Reggie White vs. Max Lane, just without quite as much space.

 

[cavtroop]

Not quite what I was trying to explain. Because our tight ends aren't great blockers, we pass block against wide alignments with a short line. This causes our tackles to get width in their pass splits, moving them away from the guards, which puts the GUARDS on an island because they're not used to/not good at blocking in space.

They play without leverage because they now have to worry about being run around. It's Reggie White vs. Max Lane, just without quite as much space.

Ah, I gotcha - the T have to pass block the DE wide (because of where the DE lines up), and hence he moves away from the G, leaving the G alone on a DT/blitzing LB

 

[Mike the Brit]

Long post explaining that 7 and 9 tech almost always mean "outside shoulder of tackle" and "outside shoulder of end." Teams that line up in these techs on both sides of the line are usually trying to spread the offensive line out and have their linebackers aggressively fill and run interior blitzes.

Thank you so much!

I'd guessed part of this, but now it's all much, much clearer -- especially the part about the phantom end. Why I come to the board (see sig. )

[Mods: there should be a place for detailed and informative threads like this, so that they don't get buried by the everyday trivia and wailing.]

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

If what we're looking at is a steady diet of 7 and 9 techniques with a 1/3 nose, isn't that a fairly easy alignment to dissect with a simple i back alignment and trap blocking? I mean, our guards are somewhat small/athletic in comparison, are you seeing anything in the run game that would rule this out, are they trying this and failing miserably, or does it just seem like they're unwilling to? I wish I had more time to go back and watch the DVRs of the games but I'm pretty sure my wife would kill me if I made her suffer through the games and my ranting 2 times a week rather than 1. I would think, especially in a 3/4 setup, this would be the absolute easiest DL technique to run on. Obviously if we're looking at a 4/3, it's a different animal but that doesn't leave Koppen as exposed either (in theory at least).

 

[cincipatsfan]

This is a GREAT thread. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and analysis.

I'd love to watch a game with some of you guys :eat3:

 

[amhunt2]

I've been reading the anti-Kaczur rants and scratching my head. You graded him out with the fewest demerits in week one. I've not focused on him, probably because our interior line had me covering my eyes and whimpering, but up until he was injured Sunday, how did the five starters grade out for the season? My impression, backed up by very little time to re-watch games this season, he's done a solid job - in fact I'd say he and Light have been the strength of the O-line thus far.

Light has been the strength, you are correct. but i'll wait to grade after stephen neal comes back and kazcur gets healthy...and they both will!

 

[captain stone]

So given that the interior is the soft underbelly of the OL, what is the best way to compensate for that? My first thought is to have plays such as having the QB roll out, or a toss out to the RB, and other plays that quickly get the ball away from the middle of the line. What do you guys think?

I think that you're exactly right, and that's what should've been done during the GTG series vs. SD; not by throwing 3/4 times, but by running away from their NT. For every attack by a defense, there can be found an appropriate counterattack by an offense.

 

[captain stone]

I had a true senior moment. Hard to tell all them Irish apart.

I agree; we're all just so darn handsome.

 

[emoney_33]

I think that you're exactly right, and that's what should've been done during the GTG series vs. SD; not by throwing 3/4 times, but by running away from their NT. For every attack by a defense, there can be found an appropriate counterattack by an offense.

They tried to run away from the NT on that GTG series, only that NT pushed Koppen 4 yards back into Sammy.

 

[captain stone]

Now to add my expert anal-ysis: I hope that Light, Mankins & Koppen all enjoyed their week in Hawaii, because they're never, ever going there for free again.

 

[captain stone]

They tried to run away from the NT on that GTG series, only that NT pushed Koppen 4 yards back into Sammy.

I've now managed to see that 2nd/goal attempt via Youtube, and what Williams did to Koppen was an embarassment. I can't recall ever seeing anything like that happen to an allegedly competent NFL Center.

This team is in big, big trouble.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I hope that Light, Mankins & Koppen all enjoyed their week in Hawaii, because they're never, ever going there for free again.

That was brutal

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I had a true senior moment. Hard to tell all them Irish apart.

Don't look there, look at the face for distinguishing features - it works for the Irish lasses, or so they claim.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Light has been the strength, you are correct. but i'll wait to grade after stephen neal comes back and kazcur gets healthy...and they both will!

Grading for each game can be helpful now in spotting trends, grading for the season I can wait on.