Paging unoriginal - O-line grades

[Box_O_Rocks]

I've been reading the anti-Kaczur rants and scratching my head. You graded him out with the fewest demerits in week one. I've not focused on him, probably because our interior line had me covering my eyes and whimpering, but up until he was injured Sunday, how did the five starters grade out for the season? My impression, backed up by very little time to re-watch games this season, he's done a solid job - in fact I'd say he and Light have been the strength of the O-line thus far.

 

[unoriginal]

I've been reading the anti-Kaczur rants and scratching my head. You graded him out with the fewest demerits in week one. I've not focused on him, probably because our interior line had me covering my eyes and whimpering, but up until he was injured Sunday, how did the five starters grade out for the season? My impression, backed up by very little time to re-watch games this season, he's done a solid job - in fact I'd say he and Light have been the strength of the O-line thus far.

That's my impression too, but I've only looked at the Jets and Chiefs games closely.

I should temper that assessment some by stating he in particular - and the tackles in general - have tended to draw easier assignments now than in years past.

Teams seem to playing 7 and 9 tech with both their ends to spread the Pats pass protection out, so they can send twists and blitzes through the interior gaps with maximum space.

This all goes back to early last year when (to pat myself, you and pats1 on the back, among others) some were cautioning against the Move-Mankins-To-Tackle-Now lobby that pass protection in space is much harder than when your sides are covered. Teams are trying to crush Koppen, our weakest point-of-attack lineman, with nose tackles and draw our tackles wide so they can send linebackers into space against our guards and running backs, who with the exception of Faulk don't excel in blitz pickup.

The Pats have been holding their tight ends in a little more on pass plays because of this, to try to add some width to the line and shorten the area each interior lineman is responsible for. The problem is our primary tight end so far - David Thomas - is not very effective blocking against DEs.

What I'm trying to say here is that teams aren't targeting our tackles like they were most of last year. They've discovered, after years of trying, that our interior is the belly of our line. No doubt the fresh meat aspect of playing Yates has only made the issue clearer for opposing defensive coordinators. Additionally, the addition of the tight end in the running game over last year - against these wide spread defensive lines - means Kaczur is often drawing assignments on linebackers, in both zone and man, while Thomas et al. have to move the defensive end. They are much easier to move around than defensive lineman - of course, providing you're athletic enough to reach them. I'm sure if Kaczur was consistently failing to block them, a la Billy Yates, I'd be a lot less flippant about the difficulty of that task.

Again, long story short, teams aren't targeting Light and Kaczur with their rush schemes, and they seem to be getting easier draws in the running game based on defensive alignments.

Caveat emptor, I'll probably be correcting these impressions once I do subsequent weeks, if it can ever be said I had an accurate understanding of these things in the first place.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

...if it can ever be said I had an accurate understanding of these things in the first place.

There is that!

 

[Mike the Brit]

Just to say "thank you" for this thread.

Unoriginal, I think I understand pretty much everything that you're saying (and it checks with my limited visual impressions) but would you mind defining "7" and "9" technique?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Teams seem to playing 7 and 9 tech with both their ends to spread the Pats pass protection out, so they can send twists and blitzes through the interior gaps with maximum space.

Teams are trying to crush Koppen, our weakest point-of-attack lineman, with nose tackles and draw our tackles wide so they can send linebackers into space against our guards and running backs, who with the exception of Faulk don't excel in blitz pickup.

The problem is our primary tight end so far - David Thomas - is not very effective blocking against DEs.

What I'm trying to say here is that teams aren't targeting our tackles like they were most of last year. They've discovered, after years of trying, that our interior is the belly of our line. No doubt the fresh meat aspect of playing Yates has only made the issue clearer for opposing defensive coordinators. Additionally, the addition of the tight end in the running game over last year - against these wide spread defensive lines - means Kaczur is often drawing assignments on linebackers, in both zone and man, while Thomas et al. have to move the defensive end. They are much easier to move around than defensive lineman - of course, providing you're athletic enough to reach them. I'm sure if Kaczur was consistently failing to block them, a la Billy Yates, I'd be a lot less flippant about the difficulty of that task.

Absolutely excellent.

I do not understand lineplay to any depth but I'd come to believe that the league had finally figured out Dante's approach and found the weakness and was exploiting it. Combine this with the departure of blocking TE Graham and the failure of the newbie TEs to block and we have the present situation.

More than ever I'm regreting that we did not add at least 1 upgrade to the OL this off season, even a blocking TE.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Up until the other night I said that Koppen was our best OL. I have never seen an OC jacked up and knocked back 2 yards by a NT the way Koppen was by Williams.

Evidently Williams saw something with Koppen which allowed him to get under Koppens pads and knock him back. That is the only way he could have done what he did.

I'll say that it was the most impressive technique execution that I have seen from a NT in a very long time.

 

[cavtroop]

That's my impression too, but I've only looked at the Jets and Chiefs games closely.

...

Caveat emptor, I'll probably be correcting these impressions once I do subsequent weeks, if it can ever be said I had an accurate understanding of these things in the first place.

I learn more from these threads, than I do anywhere else on the 'net. Just want to toss out a huge thank you for the breakdown threads you do, and the analysis like this thread - it really helps me to understand more about the game, and helps me know what to look for on game day (what you can see at full-speed anyways). Thanks again, I love it, and I'm sure a ton of other posters do, too.

EDIT: Having said that, when teams pressure the tackles, you can usually chip a TE in there. What can the Pats do about inside pressure like this - is it up to the RB to help there?

 

[JSn]

I learn more from these threads, than I do anywhere else on the 'net. Just want to toss out a huge thank you for the breakdown threads you do, and the analysis like this thread - it really helps me to understand more about the game, and helps me know what to look for on game day (what you can see at full-speed anyways). Thanks again, I love it, and I'm sure a ton of other posters do, too.

EDIT: Having said that, when teams pressure the tackles, you can usually chip a TE in there. What can the Pats do about inside pressure like this - is it up to the RB to help there?

Agreed. There are a few guys on here that should be writing for legit NFL mags. Um... is that an oxymoron?

I wish I had DVR'd the game (sort of). I'm wondering how much time Cassel had in the pocket vs. Rivers. I'm betting somewhere like 1-3 seconds less.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Agreed. There are a few guys on here that should be writing for legit NFL mags. Um... is that an oxymoron?

I wish I had DVR'd the game (sort of). I'm wondering how much time Cassel had in the pocket vs. Rivers. I'm betting somewhere like 1-3 seconds less.

An Uncle Boxter analogy:

Rivers = rocking chair

Cassel = flash flood

 

[cavtroop]

An Uncle Boxter analogy:

Rivers = rocking chair

Cassel = flash flood

Yeah, I made a comment in the game day thread about this - if Cassel had as much time in the pocket as Rivers (or say, ANY QB we've faced so far), he'd look like a stud.

 

[JSn]

Yeah, I made a comment in the game day thread about this - if Cassel had as much time in the pocket as Rivers (or say, ANY QB we've faced so far), he'd look like a stud.

I agree with you (well, Stud might be a reach, but...) though it seems like a lot of fans struggle to see anyone playing if they don't have the ball.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I agree with you (well, Stud might be a reach, but...) though it seems like a lot of fans struggle to see anyone playing if they don't have the ball.

There are other players on the field? Who knew?

 

[JSn]

There are other players on the field? Who knew?

Not most of these folks.

 

[cavtroop]

I agree with you (well, Stud might be a reach, but...) though it seems like a lot of fans struggle to see anyone playing if they don't have the ball.

yeah, 'stud' was a bit of artistic 'expression'. He'd look pretty good though, I'd bet.

I think he's running scared now, and with his average to below average pocket sense, having 2 seconds makes things real bad. So he even *thinks* he senses pressure, he pulls the ball down, and scrambles around.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

So he even *thinks* he senses pressure, he pulls the ball down, and scrambles around.

I'd be just a wee bit more critical of it wasn't that he "doesn't" have to think about feeling pressure - he's been sensing it the old fashioned way.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Seriously people, geting shelled has ruined QBs. Jim Plunkett, a talented QB, required a couple years to recover from the severe blasting he took as a Pats QB. The chaotic play by the OL is just another reason BB does NOT want to put The Mick in there at QB. O'Connell would be at risk of developing some early bad habits dealing with situations 'beyond his pay grade'. Let Cassel who DOES know the system deal with the protection issues. BB knows that Cassel is likely gone next season and that O'C is the potential 2009 backup. BB is protecting the franchise's investment in O'C as long as he's able.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Seriously people, geting shelled has ruined QBs. Jim Plunkett, a talented QB, required a couple years to recover from the severe blasting he took as a Pats QB. The chaotic play by the OL is just another reason BB does NOT want to put The Mick in there at QB. O'Connell would be at risk of developing some early bad habits dealing with situations 'beyond his pay grade'. Let Cassel who DOES know the system deal with the protection issues. BB knows that Cassel is likely gone next season and that O'C is the potential 2009 backup. BB is protecting the franchise's investment in O'C as long as he's able.

O'Callaghan at QB? With his shoulder problems? Though "Probable - Shoulder" would put him in good company. Has he got the feet to drop back and set up in the pocket though?

 

[jmt57]

So given that the interior is the soft underbelly of the OL, what is the best way to compensate for that? My first thought is to have plays such as having the QB roll out, or a toss out to the RB, and other plays that quickly get the ball away from the middle of the line. What do you guys think?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

O'Callaghan at QB? With his shoulder problems? Though "Probable - Shoulder" would put him in good company. Has he got the feet to drop back and set up in the pocket though?

I had a true senior moment. Hard to tell all them Irish apart.

 

[unoriginal]

Just to say "thank you" for this thread.

Unoriginal, I think I understand pretty much everything that you're saying (and it checks with my limited visual impressions) but would you mind defining "7" and "9" technique?

The technique system is a way to describe how a defensive lineman positions himself relative to the offensive line before the snap. There are other systems, such as the "shade" system, that describe the same thing. The gap system describes line alignments relative to gaps between offensive linemen, not on the linemen themselves.

The tech system varies highly from defensive system to defensive system. The general rules of thumb are that even numbers usually, but not always, describe head-up alignments, thus:

0 tech = head-up on center
2 tech = head-up on guard
6 tech = head-up on tackle
8 tech = head-up on end

The common ones that tend to keep the same meaning from system to system:

1 tech = outside shoulder of center, or in the A gap
3 tech = outside shoulder of guard
7 tech = outside shoulder of tackle
9 tech = outside shoulder of end

4 and 5 tech tend to change the most between systems, depending on the base front (4-3, 3-4, 3-3, 5-2 etc.) and where the coaching staff feels the need to describe alignments most. Consequently they are often out of order numerically with the other techniques. They often are

4 tech = inside shoulder of guard
5 tech = inside shoulder of tackle

Some teams might switch 4 and 6 tech, or 5 and 6 tech, etc. But the low and highs are fairly consistent. The final exception is some teams will replace 0 tech (head-up on center) with 2 tech and number head-up alignments accordingly.

Long post explaining that 7 and 9 tech almost always mean "outside shoulder of tackle" and "outside shoulder of end." Teams that line up in these techs on both sides of the line are usually trying to spread the offensive line out and have their linebackers aggressively fill and run interior blitzes.

Note that a defensive end can still line up in 9 tech even if there is no tight end on that side. They simply position themselves on the outside shoulder of a "phantom" tight end. Speed rushers will often do this on passing downs to try to get an advantage on turning the corner on slower offensive tackles. OTs will often false start in this situation because they'll be trying to time their own snap count so they can get back into their pass drops.