Building your draft board position by position - week 5: LB

[Box_O_Rocks]

Week Five brings us to the charming controversy of Linebackers. 'Nuff said.

I need to catch up with CB, and I think patchick still owes us some interior linemen.
Week One OC/OG: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-...ad.php?t=51105
Week Two DL: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-...ad.php?t=51395
Week Three OT: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-...ad.php?t=51983
Week Four CB: Building your draft board position by position - week 4: CB

Chatting with the Willis fans, I'm made aware of differing opinions on the actual size profile the Pats might use for their version of 3-4 linebackers. Keeping with my disagreeable stance on the subject, I continue looking at the Patriots' roster and drawing my conclusions from the players who have worked their way into the starting line-up:
Tedy Bruschi 6'1' 247 - I personally believe he has been playing heavier the past two seasons since coming back from his stroke, it's slowed him and made it more difficult for his slippery style of block avoidance in close quarters.
Ted Johnson 6'4" 253
Junior Seau 6'3" 248
Rosevelt Colvin 6'3" 250
Mike Vrabel 6'4" 261
Willie McGinest 6'5" 270
Tully Banta-Cain 6'3" 250
Eric Alexander 6'2" 240
Chad Brown 6'2" 245
Monty Beisel 6'3" 238
Roman Phifer 6'2" 248
Matt Chatham 6'4" 250
Brian Cox 6'4" 250

That roll call includes linebackers back to 2001 who have started. The least successful LB was also the smallest by weight. The next smallest has one start, reportedly earned for his coverage skills. Bruschi was listed at 245 on older rosters, Chad Brown struggled reportedly playing at that same weight in 2005. The lads just get bigger from there. The most successful LBs are listed in the 250 and up range and appear to be 6'3" or more by preference.

Last year I used these criteria when looking for ILB:

1. A nose for the ball.
2. An ability to play through trash.
3. An ability to fight off blocks.
4. Great tacklers.

Minimum measurables: 240 lbs, 5'11", 4.8-ish 40

For last year's OLBs I used these criteria:

1. A nose for the ball.
2. An ability to play through trash.
3. An ability to fight off blocks.
4. Great tacklers.
5. Speed and/or power off the edge.

Minimum measurables: 250 lbs, 6'3", 4.8-ish 40

This year I need to add I'm also looking for LBs with decent short area coverage skills.

Willis' recent 40 times further highlight to me how he fits so much better in the Cover 2 speed system and would appear likely to struggle if plugged into a New England two-gap style system, despite meeting my minimum measurables. Harris of Michigan with his 4.6-ish speed looks to be a better fit, his weight distribution appears to have more lower body anchor for taking on OL. Both would need to be built up more for the 3-4 system (Vrabel was listed at 250 his first two years with the Pats), so perhaps Willis could be remade to fit, but his skinnier lower body seems tailor made for sideline-to-sideline coverage and thus less stout in the 3-4's gap responsibility battle, taking on the bigger boys to control your lanes. Still, this is "your" board, even Chad Nkang fans are welcome to list him at ILB if the spirit moves them. As always, have fun.

[sebman2112]

Originally Posted by Box_O_Rocks

Week Five brings us to the charming controversy of Linebackers. 'Nuff said.

I need to catch up with CB, and I think patchick still owes us some interior linemen.
Week One OC/OG: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-...ad.php?t=51105
Week Two DL: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-...ad.php?t=51395
Week Three OT: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-...ad.php?t=51983
Week Four CB: Building your draft board position by position - week 4: CB

Chatting with the Willis fans, I'm made aware of differing opinions on the actual size profile the Pats might use for their version of 3-4 linebackers. Keeping with my disagreeable stance on the subject, I continue looking at the Patriots' roster and drawing my conclusions from the players who have worked their way into the starting line-up:
Tedy Bruschi 6'1' 247 - I personally believe he has been playing heavier the past two seasons since coming back from his stroke, it's slowed him and made it more difficult for his slippery style of block avoidance in close quarters.
Ted Johnson 6'4" 253
Junior Seau 6'3" 248
Rosevelt Colvin 6'3" 250
Mike Vrabel 6'4" 261
Willie McGinest 6'5" 270
Tully Banta-Cain 6'3" 250
Eric Alexander 6'2" 240
Chad Brown 6'2" 245
Monty Beisel 6'3" 238
Roman Phifer 6'2" 248
Matt Chatham 6'4" 250
Brian Cox 6'4" 250

That roll call includes linebackers back to 2001 who have started. The least successful LB was also the smallest by weight. The next smallest has one start, reportedly earned for his coverage skills. Bruschi was listed at 245 on older rosters, Chad Brown struggled reportedly playing at that same weight in 2005. The lads just get bigger from there. The most successful LBs are listed in the 250 and up range and appear to be 6'3" or more by preference.

Last year I used these criteria when looking for ILB:For last year's OLBs I used these criteria: This year I need to add I'm also looking for LBs with decent short area coverage skills.

Willis' recent 40 times further highlight to me how he fits so much better in the Cover 2 speed system and would appear likely to struggle if plugged into a New England two-gap style system, despite meeting my minimum measurables. Harris of Michigan with his 4.6-ish speed looks to be a better fit, his weight distribution appears to have more lower body anchor for taking on OL. Both would need to be built up more for the 3-4 system (Vrabel was listed at 250 his first two years with the Pats), so perhaps Willis could be remade to fit, but his skinnier lower body seems tailor made for sideline-to-sideline coverage and thus less stout in the 3-4's gap responsibility battle, taking on the bigger boys to control your lanes. Still, this is "your" board, even Chad Nkang fans are welcome to list him at ILB if the spirit moves them. As always, have fun.

Bruschi has been one of the most successful LB's on the entire roster, yet you say a LB has to be in the 6'3" 250 range to find success in NE's system? Bruschi is lucky to measure out at his listed 6'1" and he plays around 245-248lbs. I'm not saying hight isn't a good thing to have, but I think a lot of people who have never played MLB, or ILB overrate it. It is much more important to have a solid core, and low center of gravity, for taking on blocks, and RB's at the point of attack. I would rather have a somewhat shorter ILB with a big trunk and long arms, than a somewhat taller ILB with shorter arms, and maybe a smaller trunk.

Oh, and Harris has shorter arms, and needs to work on his hand technique, so I can't see how he fits NE's defense better than Willis. I actually think Woodley fits NE's defense better than Harris. Also,go back and look at Harris again and tell me he has a more developed trunk than Willis, and tell me who has the smaller legs....

[Box_O_Rocks]

Originally Posted by sebman2112

Bruschi has been one of the most successful LB's on the entire roster, yet you say a LB has to be in the 6'3" 250 range to find success in NE's system? Bruschi is lucky to measure out at his listed 6'1" and he plays around 245-248lbs. I'm not saying hight isn't a good thing to have, but I think a lot of people who have never played MLB, or ILB overrate it. It is much more important to have a solid core, and low center of gravity, for taking on blocks, and RB's at the point of attack. I would rather have a somewhat shorter ILB with a big trunk and long arms, than a somewhat taller ILB with shorter arms, and maybe a smaller trunk.

Oh, and Harris has shorter arms, and needs to work on his hand technique, so I can't see how he fits NE's defense better than Willis. I actually think Woodley fits NE's defense better than Harris. Also,go back and look at Harris again and tell me he has a more developed trunk than Willis, and tell me who has the smaller legs....

Yep, you fixate on Bruschi who is the anamoly in the starting line-up. Tedy was a record holding sackmaster as a DL in college before the Pats took him in round 3. He was a STs stud who took a few years to transition to LB. When he is at his best he isn't squaring up against OL in the trenches, instead he slides off and around them to make the play (like that other small LB stud in Miami that people like to highlight when trying to discount prototypical size).

Now Willis is a good MLB, he has good production and is probably the best MLB in this draft class, he played the Senior Bowl and ran the Combine at 242 before dropping 5 pounds to improve his 40 time in his Pro-day. He was listed at 6'2" 240 by Ole Miss, oddly enough, college rosters like to exaggerate the size of their players, and his 6'2 is barely over 6'1", but we'll take that 240 at face value for his playing weight this season. So Willis at 6'1" 237-242 is there at the lower end of my measurables, but that doesn't mean he's the best fit in the Patriots' system, as suggested by all the many top notch LBs in past drafts with similar measurables and followings selected by the Pats.

The prototype ILB for the Pats 3-4 system is 6'2" - 6'4" and weighs roughly 250. Bruschi is the odd man out and not the standard. Willis, a 6'1" 237-242 kid who played in a Cover-2 system vs Harris, a 6'2" 243-245 kid who has actual experience in a 3-4, which is the easier projection? You'll also note I don't have either as my #1 ILB choice in this draft.

I agree Woodly may be a good ILB, but that is a projection requiring a transition, even assuming he's a second round grade, he's a risky pick Day one if you're thinking ILB. I'm not sold on him as a Day one OLB either. Still, it's your board, I'll enjoy reading your list.

[PATSNUTme]

We can stretch Willis.

[Box_O_Rocks]

Originally Posted by PATSNUTme

We can stretch Willis.

Dan Klecko says Hi!

[cstjohn17]

Originally Posted by Box_O_Rocks

Tedy was a record holding sackmaster as a DL in college before the Pats took him in round 3.

People forget how good Bruschi was in college, he had over 20 sacks his last year at Arizona. Also don't forget that Vrabel is the all time sack leader at Ohio State, these guys were very good college players not just scrubs.

http://ohiostatebuckeyes.cstv.com/sp...bl-vrabel.html

Back the board, it seems like we still have the age old dilemma College LBs do not match our prototypical size requirements, especially at ILB. With the need to get younger at LB and with a dominant DLine maybe this is the year we see a slightly undersized yet productive player (Pos., Beason).

In 2004 after Pittsburgh stomped our brains in the regular season matchup, Bruschi was furious saying "Stopping the run is a mentality". Personally I think he plays at closer to 240 and don't think it is out of the question for a player to play WILB at a similar weight. Bruschi has been playing a lot at SILB (right hand side of the defense) and this does not fit his body type and diminishes his play making ability.

Still the question remains, who will play SILB on early downs? position played by Seau last year and TJ before that.

From the draft maybe Bradley or deOssie have the size but it is very few and far between. Good chance a vet Mitchell, Hartwell, etc. fill the role as a spot starter at SILB and a draft pick subs at WILB. It would great if we had a backup at both positions from the draft to help with future continuity.

"Mike Vrabel, a two-time All-America selection, made his mark as one of the most tenacious and feared pass rushers in Ohio State history. He owns every OSU season and career sack record. In 1996, he set a single-season school record with 13 sacks for minus 101 yards. His 36 career sacks for minus 245 yards also are Buckeye standards. Vrabel also finished his career as OSU’s all-time career leader in tackles-for-loss with 66. In his junior and senior years, Vrabel was named the Big Ten Conference’s Defensive Lineman of the Year. He also was a three-time first team All-Big Ten selection. "

[PATRIOTS-80]

Well, gotta list my favorite.

Board

ILB
Stewart Bradley
David Harris
Anthony Waters
Marvin Mitchell

OLB
Zak DeOssie
LaMarr Woodley (if he slips to 3rd round)
Quetin Moses (I think he will slip to the 3rd round)

The DE to OLB projection are difficult to project, but I see BB spending a 3rd round/4th round pick on one maybe.

[midwestpatsfan]

So Box, who is your number 1 rated LB?

[Box_O_Rocks]

Originally Posted by midwestpatsfan

So Box, who is your number 1 rated LB?

My goodness, what a humbling post, the damage to my poor ego to realize you aren't breathlessly waiting to read each and everyone of my posts. I may need therapy! You sir are cruel, but on topic, I think the SLB from your neighboring Huskers is the best prospect for the move inside.

[midwestpatsfan]

Originally Posted by Box_O_Rocks

My goodness, what a humbling post, the damage to my poor ego to realize you aren't breathlessly waiting to read each and everyone of my posts. I may need therapy! You sir are cruel, but on topic, I think the SLB from your neighboring Huskers is the best prospect for the move inside.

I honestly didnt mean that to come off snobish, I really wanted to know because so far what I have read of yours you seem much more in tune with the draft thatn I am, and I am jeleous.