Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

[3 to be 4]

http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Jews_Information_Desk/Forcast_of_jesus.htm

[wistahpatsfan]

Funny...He doesn't look like a Messiah!

[3 to be 4]

You didnt know dat, did you?

[Clonamery]

It's good to be alive. The birds (cardinals, finches, and a huge blue jay) outside my window this morning where singing like crazy. They knew it was going to be a great day. I've got my large coffee and I even skipped the donuts this morning. What a great day to be alive. I'm sitting at the computer having just read through the daily baseball and football transactions from yesterday on espn.com and now I'm logged in here. Outside, the great dane that lives next door is peeing on a large oak tree. It's a dang yellow flood. The dog's the size of a pony. My cat, who shall remain nameless, doesn't know it's a dog, in fact she's not sure what it is. She's sleeping on 'Nine Stories.' I re-read it every year; I think you should read your favorite books again as a matter of ritual because they're as much a part of you as reading the sports page every morning. Anywho, I decided to respond to this thread because of the part in the story, 'For Esme - with Love and Squalor' where the protagonist is trying to explain his current mental state. He quotes Dostoevski's description of Hell (that it is the suffering of being unable to love). And there you are.

3 to 4, Jesus and/or any religion is an answer or guide through life if you need them. And all the showing and preaching pales in comparison to the real thing. And if you do need something more just remember a few BB quotes like
'it is what it is' or 'you are what you are' or my favorite, 'Football is a game where everybody gets knocked down sooner or later—usually sooner. Then you get up and then you get knocked down again.'

Have a great day and when you get knocked down, get up. And when you see someone else get knocked down, help them up.

[3 to be 4]

It's good to be alive. The birds (cardinals, finches, and a huge blue jay) outside my window this morning where singing like crazy. They knew it was going to be a great day. I've got my large coffee and I even skipped the donuts this morning. What a great day to be alive. I'm sitting at the computer having just read through the daily baseball and football transactions from yesterday on espn.com and now I'm logged in here. Outside, the great dane that lives next door is peeing on a large oak tree. It's a dang yellow flood. The dog's the size of a pony. My cat, who shall remain nameless, doesn't know it's a dog, in fact she's not sure what it is. She's sleeping on 'Nine Stories.' I re-read it every year; I think you should read your favorite books again as a matter of ritual because they're as much a part of you as reading the sports page every morning. Anywho, I decided to respond to this thread because of the part in the story, 'For Esme - with Love and Squalor' where the protagonist is trying to explain his current mental state. He quotes Dostoevski's description of Hell (that it is the suffering of being unable to love). And there you are.

3 to 4, Jesus and/or any religion is an answer or guide through life if you need them. And all the showing and preaching pales in comparison to the real thing. And if you do need something more just remember a few BB quotes like
'it is what it is' or 'you are what you are' or my favorite, 'Football is a game where everybody gets knocked down sooner or later—usually sooner. Then you get up and then you get knocked down again.'

Have a great day and when you get knocked down, get up. And when you see someone else get knocked down, help them up.

Thank you for taking the time to read, and respond. You are absolutely right, its more important to help someone up than to talk about it. But if there was poor section in Oklahoma or Arkansas, or in the streets of Kansas City, i think id take my chances that my pastor and those of us from our local church would move in a lot faster than Bill Belichick. Great football coach and all but.........

[Clonamery]

Thank you for taking the time to read, and respond. You are absolutely right, its more important to help someone up than to talk about it. But if there was poor section in Oklahoma or Arkansas, or in the streets of Kansas City, i think id take my chances that my pastor and those of us from our local church would move in a lot faster than Bill Belichick. Great football coach and all but.........

Actually, sweetheart, I was really saying different strokes for different folks and the help gets there either way.

But thanks for trying.....

[3 to be 4]

Actually, sweetheart, I was really saying different strokes for different folks and the help gets there either way.

But thanks for trying.....

You are very welcome.
It used to annoy me when people said it, but whether you believe it or not, Jesus loves you.

[Clonamery]

Jesus loves you.

Thank you for the good thoughts, but that may only be your opinion. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[3 to be 4]

Thank you for the good thoughts, but that may only be your opinion. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Its not MY opinion. Its in the most scutinized and authenticated book ever written. Jesus loves you.

[Clonamery]

Its not MY opinion. Its in the most scutinized and authenticated book ever written. Jesus loves you.

OK, since he seems to have plenty enough to go around....

[3 to be 4]

OK, since he seems to have plenty enough to go around....

absolutely

[CPF]

Its not MY opinion. Its in the most scutinized and authenticated book ever written. Jesus loves you.

I think I like this "3 to be 4" guy! That sounds exactly like something I'd say;) Take care CPF

[3 to be 4]

Actually, most of it has been debunked more often than proven.

And, there are books that were written that have been hidden in the catacombs of the Vatican by the Catholic Church....


and the debunking has all been debunked. Are you talking the DaVinci Code stuff by Dan Brown? Hes a great author, but its a story.

the supposed "Gospels" that were written years after? The "Mona Lisa" code? of course, DaVinci himself never called his painting that, but lets not get facts in the way.

[shmessy]

Now THAT'S the stuff! Thank you NEM, that changed my life.

If you have any more of those verses, I'm like a thirsty desert wanderer dreaming of this water.............

[3 to be 4]

CONTINUATION

Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress. When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had done, in order that Yeshu's followers should not steal the body and then claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words, "This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven." Realizing that Yeshu was a false prophet who enticed the people and led them astray, she mocked the followers but praised the Sages.

The disciples went out among the nations--three went to the mountains of Ararat, three to Armenia, three to Rome and three to the kingdoms buy the sea, They deluded the people, but ultimately they were slain.

The erring followers amongst Israel said: "You have slain the Messiah of the Lord." The Israelites answered: "You have believed in a false prophet." There was endless strife and discord for thirty years.

The Sages desired to separate from Israel those who continued to claim Yeshu as the Messiah, and they called upon a greatly learned man, Simeon Kepha, for help. Simeon went to Antioch, main city of the Nazarenes and proclaimed toe them: "I am the disciple of Yeshu. He has sent me to show you the way. I will give you a sign as Yeshu has done."

Simeon, having gained the secret of the Ineffable Name, healed a leper and a lame man by means of it and thus found acceptance as a true disciple. He told them that Yeshu was in heaven, at the right hand of his Father, in fulfillment of Psalm 110:1. He added that Yeshu desired that they separate themselves from the Jews and no longer follow their practices, as Isaiah had said, "Your new moons and your feasts my soul abhorreth." They were now to observe the first day of the week instead of the seventh, the Resurrection instead of the Passover, the Ascension into Heaven instead of the Feast of Weeks, the finding of the Cross instead of the New Year, the Feast of the Circumcision instead of the Day of Atonement, the New Year instead of Chanukah; they were to be indifferent with regard to circumcision and the dietary laws. Also they were to follow the teaching of turning the right if smitten on the left and the meek acceptance of suffering. All these new ordinances which Simeon Kepha (or Paul, as he was known to the Nazarenes) taught them were really meant to separate these Nazarenes from the people of Israel and to bring the internal strife to an end.


Good read. please go on.

[3 to be 4]

logic would tell me that if you buy into all that, then Schmessy and NEM, you are both Orthodox Jews? Mozeltov!

[shmessy]

logic would tell me that if you buy into all that, then Schmessy and NEM, you are both Orthodox Jews? Mozeltov!

I'm not Orthodox, but I am a Jew. And I will never proselytize to you. My religious belief is inside me and strong. It is not force fed by someone tirelessly campaigning. Debating someone to submit to your paradigm does not result in a true believer. It must come from inside, not outside.

Furthermore, in another thread you write that in the past 3 weeks "ive been getting into all kinds of scraps and embarrassing situations. Every time, its because ive been engaging in the "old me" behavior.Post a beautiful praising song to God one moment, and then post a mean spirited news story to get a chuckle over how stupid someone is, that kind of thing.On this site, i made a mean comment about a murder that happened at a Buffet. Sure enough, someone that knew the victim saw my link and was very hurt by it."

Don't you think that that may be a little warning light indicator that maybe ....perhaps...you don't yet have the insight to be preaching to others??? Analogy: No one wants to get a driving lesson from a drunk.

I TRULY wish you success in your search for INNER peace and understanding. I look forward to hearing about the progress you make.

[PatsFanInVa]

Christ on a CRUTCH, 3 to B.

Do you really imagine there's a Jew in North America -- Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, or other -- who hasn't been assaulted with crap like that which you linked to, for the majority of their LIVES?

Here's a news flash: We've all heard the "good news." You believe in Jesus, we do not. In terms you can understand, that's why they call us "Jews."

Are you aware that in Medieval Europe, when Christians weren't busy just plain murdering or forcibly converting Jews, it was often required for a Church propagandist to preach sermons right in the middle of our religious services? Of course you're not.

Well, those didn't work either.

Please spend more of your time threatening your own children with eternal torment after death, or better, doing works that help others, as suggested elsewhere here.

From what I can tell, the crying need in the heart of Israel for the wisdom of the Christian churches, has been greatly exaggerated.

PFnV

[Clonamery]

Please spend more of your time threatening your own children with eternal torment after death, or better, doing works that help others, as suggested elsewhere here.

From what I can tell, the crying need in the heart of Israel for the wisdom of the Christian churches, has been greatly exaggerated.

PFnV

Amen, brothers.

[Clonamery]

It must come from inside, not outside.
.

Thankfully that is true of any religion....

[3 to be 4]

Thankfully that is true of any religion....


exactly how were any you assaulted? If you are so secure in your ground, how about offering reasons for "Jews not to believe in Jesus"

I had been a Jew for 42 years beforehand and I didnt sound too different.
Get all offended, say you've been "assaulted", and never offer a valid scriptural answer.

once again, in my post i admitted a "struggle". I didnt say I was JUST SAVED or that i ws a raving lunatic. Just that I made a few jokes that represented the old me and i was being open enough to own up to it.

Ive been on fire for the Lord for 17 months and im very secure in my beliefs.
Because of that im offering up some concrete, Old Testament reasoning, while acknowledging what "false Christians" did to Jews in the past. Did you READ the website? any rebuttals.

or are you just going to what I did for all those years and just say "how dare you"?

You were not assaulted by me at any time.

I just want to tell you. Jesus loves you.

[shmessy]

exactly how were any you assaulted? If you are so secure in your ground, how about offering reasons for "Jews not to believe in Jesus"

I had been a Jew for 42 years beforehand and I didnt sound too different.
Get all offended, say you've been "assaulted", and never offer a valid scriptural answer.

once again, in my post i admitted a "struggle". I didnt say I was JUST SAVED or that i ws a raving lunatic. Just that I made a few jokes that represented the old me and i was being open enough to own up to it.

Ive been on fire for the Lord for 17 months and im very secure in my beliefs.
Because of that im offering up some concrete, Old Testament reasoning, while acknowledging what "false Christians" did to Jews in the past. Did you READ the website? any rebuttals.

or are you just going to what I did for all those years and just say "how dare you"?

You were not assaulted by me at any time.

I just want to tell you. Jesus loves you.

Except for a few small sects, we don't proselytize. We know that one's relation to God and Judaism must come from within, not externally from peer pressure. If external pressure worked on us, we never could have survived two thousand years of "hearing the good news".

I enjoy a quiet serendipity. Life has its ups and downs but I experience and appreciate each.

[Clonamery]

exactly how were any you assaulted? If you are so secure in your ground, how about offering reasons for "Jews not to believe in Jesus"


Well, I am not a Jew so I cannot speak to that. But yet Jesus is not the answer for me or my brother who is a Buddhist.

I am probably too selfish and ignorant (or arrogant) to seek any particular religion. I feel this life is too short not to, as a wiser, more intelligent man put it, "experience and appreciate" each of life's "ups and downs" with a mortal serendipity with an occasional epiphany.

[PatsFanInVa]

exactly how were any you assaulted? If you are so secure in your ground, how about offering reasons for "Jews not to believe in Jesus"

3toB, if you are secure in your belief as a Christian, why do you have this need to foist your point of view on those of other faiths -- singling out Jews in particular?

If you have any knowledge of history, you know the Christian psychological need for Jews to cease to exist in their present, non-Christian form, has caused no end of mischief in the form of forced conversions, pogroms, and theological antisemitism.

Beyond that, the proselytizing to other religious groups displays epic chutzpah. Since it is a prevalent, and by some readings inescapable, "duty" for a Christian to annoy others with Christian needs vis a vis others' beliefs, I think this rude habit is only somehow accepted in society because of its ubiquity.

As to addressing the particulars of your little link, my friend, I've explained rot like this a good thousand times by now to various people at various times in my life. At no time did either party convince the other.

Nor do I walk around asking Christians, "if the Gospel says Jesus will return within the lifetime of those who hear his voice, where the hell is he????"

You have a problem, 3 to B. Jesus was suppose to have been the messiah of the Jews, but by and large he turns out only to be the messiah of non-Jews, until you bring the sword into play. This is why Pauline christianity became the christianity with which you're familiar, and Peter is a much lesser figure. Peter failed in converting the Jews, while Paul was ridiculously successful.

It's a free country, and we do have freedom of speech. But if I tell your kid "believe deep in my heart what I believe, or my friend will set you on fire," it's not protected speech.

This is exactly the approach christian evangelists take when attempting to preach this rot to children without consent of their parents. I know this from experience, and even as a child, wiped the floor with most of them.

We're all grown up here, and it is fine for you to show your ignorance of others' ability to make up their own minds, and annoy us with your own need for Jews to convert -- ain't gonna happen. But I would hope that soon Jewish parents start bringing lawsuits against prosyletizers who cannot limit themselves to populations who have reached the age of consent.

PFnV

[Clonamery]

It's a free country, and we do have freedom of speech. But if I tell your kid "believe deep in my heart what I believe, or my friend will set you on fire," it's not protected speech.

This is exactly the approach christian evangelists take when attempting to preach this rot to children without consent of their parents. I know this from experience, and even as a child, wiped the floor with most of them.

We're all grown up here, and it is fine for you to show your ignorance of others' ability to make up their own minds, and annoy us with your own need for Jews to convert -- ain't gonna happen. But I would hope that soon Jewish parents start bringing lawsuits against prosyletizers who cannot limit themselves to populations who have reached the age of consent.

PFnV

It always seems to be one crusade or another for the insecure.

Those that are challenged often generally are all the more wiser and stronger as you stand as an example.

[mavfan2390]

Good read 3 to 4, thanks.

All he (she) is trying to do is follow the Bible which tells us to spread the Word. Even if he has planted only one seed his debating would have been worth it.

Keep spreading the Word!

[3 to be 4]

Christ on a CRUTCH, 3 to B.

Do you really imagine there's a Jew in North America -- Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, or other -- who hasn't been assaulted with crap like that which you linked to, for the majority of their LIVES?

Here's a news flash: We've all heard the "good news." You believe in Jesus, we do not. In terms you can understand, that's why they call us "Jews."

Are you aware that in Medieval Europe, when Christians weren't busy just plain murdering or forcibly converting Jews, it was often required for a Church propagandist to preach sermons right in the middle of our religious services? Of course you're not.

Well, those didn't work either.

Please spend more of your time threatening your own children with eternal torment after death, or better, doing works that help others, as suggested elsewhere here.

From what I can tell, the crying need in the heart of Israel for the wisdom of the Christian churches, has been greatly exaggerated.

PFnV

I didnt say that no Jew has been assaulted with stuff. I said that I didnt assault you.
And you dont need to call the link i sent a swear word. Im not swearing at you.

Do you know WHY you dont believe in Jesus? this is all im asking? I have yet heard a response to the substance of the link I sent. Why?

I am well aware of the persucution of Jews, my friend. I am Jewish, and I know all about it. And if you had read the link that topic is well discussed. Those acts were commited by false Christians obviously. Again, focus on Jesus Christ, not on Christians or Christianity.

Have I threatened you or my children with eternal damnation? No need for anger here PatsFaninVa this is just a discussion.

i just posed some reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus. The best reason? Because Jesus loves you.

[3 to be 4]

3toB, if you are secure in your belief as a Christian, why do you have this need to foist your point of view on those of other faiths -- singling out Jews in particular?

If you have any knowledge of history, you know the Christian psychological need for Jews to cease to exist in their present, non-Christian form, has caused no end of mischief in the form of forced conversions, pogroms, and theological antisemitism.

Beyond that, the proselytizing to other religious groups displays epic chutzpah. Since it is a prevalent, and by some readings inescapable, "duty" for a Christian to annoy others with Christian needs vis a vis others' beliefs, I think this rude habit is only somehow accepted in society because of its ubiquity.

As to addressing the particulars of your little link, my friend, I've explained rot like this a good thousand times by now to various people at various times in my life. At no time did either party convince the other.

Nor do I walk around asking Christians, "if the Gospel says Jesus will return within the lifetime of those who hear his voice, where the hell is he????"

You have a problem, 3 to B. Jesus was suppose to have been the messiah of the Jews, but by and large he turns out only to be the messiah of non-Jews, until you bring the sword into play. This is why Pauline christianity became the christianity with which you're familiar, and Peter is a much lesser figure. Peter failed in converting the Jews, while Paul was ridiculously successful.

It's a free country, and we do have freedom of speech. But if I tell your kid "believe deep in my heart what I believe, or my friend will set you on fire," it's not protected speech.

This is exactly the approach christian evangelists take when attempting to preach this rot to children without consent of their parents. I know this from experience, and even as a child, wiped the floor with most of them.

We're all grown up here, and it is fine for you to show your ignorance of others' ability to make up their own minds, and annoy us with your own need for Jews to convert -- ain't gonna happen. But I would hope that soon Jewish parents start bringing lawsuits against prosyletizers who cannot limit themselves to populations who have reached the age of consent.

PFnV

Maybe someone once threatened to set you or your kids on fire, but it wasnt me. And it was that kind of evil that kept me from Christ for so long. I was blaming Him for the humans that took his name and did hideous things.

The link was very clear in condemning that kind of behavior from false Christians. And it would be shame if Jews or anybody else made their decision based on that. It would play right into the hands of evil.

As for my insecurity....if i was so insecure, do you think i would risk alientating everyone in my family by telling them the same thing im saying here?

No, Christ has set me free. It wont harm me what my brother, my sister, my cousins, my aunts, my uncles, my boss, my friends, anybody thinks. I put my Lord above them all. He is with me always. So im free to speak the truth.
And secure to admit my vulnerabilities as i did a few weeks ago. To be real. Im still human. I make loads of mistakes. And yes, i sin just like everybody.
But i was never "lost" as I learned some lessons about acting out.

It is my responsibility as a follwer of Christ to spread the good news wherever I can, in a respectful way.

I did threaten anyone with damnation. I didnt call you all names. I didnt say Jews MUST do this or that. I gave a link that gave very well thought out and organized Scriptural reasoning for Jews to believe. This pushed a button with some.

I welcome the challenges so that I may take in your questions and search for honest and reasonable responses. That way I can grow. I dont shrink from that and tell you not to respond. In fact, I didnt force you to read anything.

I understand the cultural difficulty Jews have with this. We were told all our lives how we have to remember this and remember that, and our heritage, and opur people and culture. But very few Jews discuss WHY THEY BELIEVE WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

the Jewish leaders and the politicians had a great deal of motivation to not have the people believe in Christ.

the many witnesses who died a grisly death for not simply recanting their story had motivation too. it was the truth. Who gets themselves tortured to death for a lie.

just putting it out there.............

[PatsFanInVa]

i just posed some reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus. The best reason? Because Jesus loves you.

My cat loves me, 3 to B. I do not, however, think my cat is the messiah.

As I've said before, I have no reason to explain my own faith to you. Your faith in Judaism was weak, and you accepted the majority's definition of your peoples' faith. These are two undeniable facts. To wit:

1: If your faith in Judaism was in itself fulfilling to you, there would be no reason to become a Christian, and
2: Christianity, it so happens, is the majority religion in the U.S.

That is fine, and it is your choice.

Now, you also believe yourself to have made a personal choice in this regard, quite possibly accompanied by some internal spiritual fireworks. I also have no desire to hear about how you saw the light at a Van Halen concert, at the funeral of a good friend, or in the third act of "A Mid Summer Night's Dream" at the Lincoln Center. It is immaterial, from my point of view, how your own story came about, from your subjective point of view.

What you are missing is that I have no need for the healing balm of Christianity, or for that matter of Islam or Buddhism. I also don't "take up the challenge" of every Muslim I meet, to explain what Moses meant when he threatened the Israelites that because of their behavior, God will raise up another prophet like unto Moses, and another people.

The fact is, that other prophet, as far as I'm concerned, ain't Mohammad. (By the way you might want to look into Islamic proof of the mistakes of Christianity, if you wish to continue your spiritual journey.)

The messiah in the Hebrew bible prophecies, is not Jesus -- if it were, we would be living in a messianic age. And point for point, I could point out to you how:
1) Your link is almost certainly written from the "cherrypicker" mentality (i.e., the whole point to the Hebrew scriptures, was to be purloined by gentiles for the benefit of their man-God cult; )
2) The gospel writers clearly knew which prophecies they were trying to get Jesus to conform to, when they recounted his words and acts decades after his death;
3) Jesus himself was also well aware of the messiah "requirements;" and
4) Jesus' idea of the role of a messiah might have been Jewish, but the ideas that the gospel writers brought to the table were not.

If Jesus was of Davidic lineage, for him to say he was to be the "annointed" (masshiach), meant declaring himself the "real" king. That's about it. The masshiach idea took on spiritual dimensions, and the restoration of David's empire took on some fantastic attributes, over the years. But nobody was running around within Judaism talking about replacing study, prayer, and sacrifice (at the time), with worship of a Caesar-like "man-God."

Congratulations on having jettisoned a monotheistic heritage, 3toB. I'm glad it seemed the right thing to do from your point of view. But you're not going to make any progress with those of us who know our own heritage.

PFnV

[shmessy]

My cat loves me, 3 to B. I do not, however, think my cat is the messiah.

As I've said before, I have no reason to explain my own faith to you. Your faith in Judaism was weak, and you accepted the majority's definition of your peoples' faith. These are two undeniable facts. To wit:

1: If your faith in Judaism was in itself fulfilling to you, there would be no reason to become a Christian, and
2: Christianity, it so happens, is the majority religion in the U.S.

That is fine, and it is your choice.

Now, you also believe yourself to have made a personal choice in this regard, quite possibly accompanied by some internal spiritual fireworks. I also have no desire to hear about how you saw the light at a Van Halen concert, at the funeral of a good friend, or in the third act of "A Mid Summer Night's Dream" at the Lincoln Center. It is immaterial, from my point of view, how your own story came about, from your subjective point of view.

What you are missing is that I have no need for the healing balm of Christianity, or for that matter of Islam or Buddhism. I also don't "take up the challenge" of every Muslim I meet, to explain what Moses meant when he threatened the Israelites that because of their behavior, God will raise up another prophet like unto Moses, and another people.

The fact is, that other prophet, as far as I'm concerned, ain't Mohammad. (By the way you might want to look into Islamic proof of the mistakes of Christianity, if you wish to continue your spiritual journey.)

The messiah in the Hebrew bible prophecies, is not Jesus -- if it were, we would be living in a messianic age. And point for point, I could point out to you how:
1) Your link is almost certainly written from the "cherrypicker" mentality (i.e., the whole point to the Hebrew scriptures, was to be purloined by gentiles for the benefit of their man-God cult; )
2) The gospel writers clearly knew which prophecies they were trying to get Jesus to conform to, when they recounted his words and acts decades after his death;
3) Jesus himself was also well aware of the messiah "requirements;" and
4) Jesus' idea of the role of a messiah might have been Jewish, but the ideas that the gospel writers brought to the table were not.

If Jesus was of Davidic lineage, for him to say he was to be the "annointed" (masshiach), meant declaring himself the "real" king. That's about it. The masshiach idea took on spiritual dimensions, and the restoration of David's empire took on some fantastic attributes, over the years. But nobody was running around within Judaism talking about replacing study, prayer, and sacrifice (at the time), with worship of a Caesar-like "man-God."

Congratulations on having jettisoned a monotheistic heritage, 3toB. I'm glad it seemed the right thing to do from your point of view. But you're not going to make any progress with those of us who know our own heritage.

PFnV

Now THAT moved me.

I must say to 3tobe4, whenever you explain why you believe what you believe you state "because it is written in the scriptures". Have to tell you, my good man, that is about the weakest basis possible. I could say I believe Tom Brady used steroids because "it is written" by some troll on the fan forum.

History is replete with revisionism. He who owns the pen (and the sword) has written most of world history. Don't you find it odd how almost every culture depicts God or Jesus as looking exactly like themselves? How many blonde haired blue eyed (or at least light skinned) Jesus' have been portrayed by Papal artists? African Christians tend to portray Jesus as black. The same can be said for Christianity's and traditional Judaism's depiction of the Creator as a man. A man with emotions. He. Him. Let's face facts - - human beings are incredibly NARCISSISTIC!. Someone in the 1970's, coined my favorite line: "God is black, and is SHE ever angry!"

The depiction of God as "one of us" would perhaps be seen as a great insult and upset the Creator if the Creator actually was so much like us to have emotions. Anthropomorphizing the Creator may make people "feel good and familiar". It is comforting to people. That's what so many religions are about.

In ancient times, with limited science (a bad word to traditional Christians through the ages - - right up to George "no stem cells, ozone or NASA funding" Bush) humans did not understand why the sun set or thunderstorms occurred. Think about it. Before science illuminated our understanding, people could go mad with fear living outside at the whim of nature. People (understandably) craved a reason why these dangerous events occurred. Many cultures invented stories and gods as a means of comforting the masses. Greek and Roman mythology, the Torah, the New Testament, Native American myths, etc. - - all replete with explanations of how God (or gods) were actively making these natural events occur. As John Lennon sang "Whatever Gets You Through the Night, It's Alright".

Well, most of us today don't live in caves or tents anymore. We aren't subject to the ravages of nature on a daily basis. We understand what causes lightning and thunder and floods to occur. It is not a complete mystery like it was to those scared, exposed ancestors. We don't need the crutch of inventing some kindly old man with a beard who floats up in the sky who has a son who lived down here who was conceived in an immaculate fashion. To me that is as ridiculous as my own religion's story of God parting the Red Sea so that the Hebrew slaves could escape Egypt. Today, we would understand it as a Tsunami or hurricane that whipped up sections of a body of water at a narrow point.

If leaning on "well, it is written in the Scriptures" gets you through the night, fine. I choose light and understanding (along with a healthy and humble acceptance that I need not invent stories to explain what I do not know). I love what I know and love knowing that I do not know everything. Perhaps I am not supposed to know all the mysteries of the universe. However, I do pity those who are so upset about not knowing certain mysteries of the universe that they desperately have to invent faerie tales. Just like our ancestral cave dwellers.

[shmessy]

Do you know WHY you dont believe in Jesus? this is all im asking? I have yet heard a response to the substance of the link I sent. Why?
____________

Shmessy: I've given you many reasons, the most recent of which is in the post above this
_____________________________-

I am well aware of the persucution of Jews, my friend. I am Jewish
___________-
Shmessy: Pardon me? You are the definition of Christian - - you deeply believe in Christ and the scriptures written by his Disciples, there's no need to be disingenuous. However, you have every right to call yourself Jewish, just as I have every right to call myself Coco Crisp.
__________________________________________________ ________________
And if you had read the link that topic is well discussed. Those acts were commited by false Christians obviously.
__________________________________________________ _________

Shmessy: Who decides which Christians are the "false" Christians? Is there some kind of give away? Heck, a few lines ago you called yourself "Jewish" - - who's calling whom the "false Christian" here?
__________________________________________________ ______________
Again, focus on Jesus Christ, not on Christians or Christianity.
__________________________________________________ ______
Shmessy: Piffle. Someone who focuses on Jesus Christ is by definition a "Christian". Certainly not a "Mohammedan"
__________________________________________________ _________

Have I threatened you or my children with eternal damnation? No need for anger here PatsFaninVa this is just a discussion.

i just posed some reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus. The best reason? Because Jesus loves you.
__________________________________________________ _______-

Shmessy: And so does PatsfaninVa's cat! :)



___________________________________________

[CPF]

It’s very interesting to me how a simple little post of a link to a web site can set of such a fire storm among all of you “enlightened” “freethinking” champions of tolerance, with nary a shred mind you, of any type of substantial rebuttal. If you disagree and would like to offer a point by point rebuttal of the claims made by the authors of the web site then do so, but please stop the incessant attacks against this mans world view.

PatsFaninVA (that’s way too long , we are going to have to come up with an abbreviation), you say you have slogged this argument out time and again well……either do it again or stop with the innuendo. Do you want to debate some of the issues you, kind of, addressed? Great! Otherwise, let it go.

Shmessy; would you like to debate the veracity and authenticity of Scripture? Evolutionary science vs. I.D? Great! Otherwise, you can do the same.

Clonamery, would you like to champion your pluralistic world view in a serious debate between it and Christianity? Great! Otherwise…….well you know the drill;)

I don’t understand the need to take pot shots at this guy for honestly expressing what he believes. It would be one thing if you simply cordially disagreed with him, but the open antagonism and sarcasm (kind of like what I posted above), is that really productive, or necessary? Did it make your day? Think before you write, that is one of the great benefits of a forum like this, don’t waste it. Take care, CPF

[3 to be 4]

My cat loves me, 3 to B. I do not, however, think my cat is the messiah.

As I've said before, I have no reason to explain my own faith to you. Your faith in Judaism was weak, and you accepted the majority's definition of your peoples' faith. These are two undeniable facts. To wit:

1: If your faith in Judaism was in itself fulfilling to you, there would be no reason to become a Christian, and
2: Christianity, it so happens, is the majority religion in the U.S.

That is fine, and it is your choice.

Now, you also believe yourself to have made a personal choice in this regard, quite possibly accompanied by some internal spiritual fireworks. I also have no desire to hear about how you saw the light at a Van Halen concert, at the funeral of a good friend, or in the third act of "A Mid Summer Night's Dream" at the Lincoln Center. It is immaterial, from my point of view, how your own story came about, from your subjective point of view.

What you are missing is that I have no need for the healing balm of Christianity, or for that matter of Islam or Buddhism. I also don't "take up the challenge" of every Muslim I meet, to explain what Moses meant when he threatened the Israelites that because of their behavior, God will raise up another prophet like unto Moses, and another people.

The fact is, that other prophet, as far as I'm concerned, ain't Mohammad. (By the way you might want to look into Islamic proof of the mistakes of Christianity, if you wish to continue your spiritual journey.)

The messiah in the Hebrew bible prophecies, is not Jesus -- if it were, we would be living in a messianic age. And point for point, I could point out to you how:
1) Your link is almost certainly written from the "cherrypicker" mentality (i.e., the whole point to the Hebrew scriptures, was to be purloined by gentiles for the benefit of their man-God cult; )
2) The gospel writers clearly knew which prophecies they were trying to get Jesus to conform to, when they recounted his words and acts decades after his death;
3) Jesus himself was also well aware of the messiah "requirements;" and
4) Jesus' idea of the role of a messiah might have been Jewish, but the ideas that the gospel writers brought to the table were not.

If Jesus was of Davidic lineage, for him to say he was to be the "annointed" (masshiach), meant declaring himself the "real" king. That's about it. The masshiach idea took on spiritual dimensions, and the restoration of David's empire took on some fantastic attributes, over the years. But nobody was running around within Judaism talking about replacing study, prayer, and sacrifice (at the time), with worship of a Caesar-like "man-God."

Congratulations on having jettisoned a monotheistic heritage, 3toB. I'm glad it seemed the right thing to do from your point of view. But you're not going to make any progress with those of us who know our own heritage.

PFnV

"1: If your faith in Judaism was in itself fulfilling to you, there would be no reason to become a Christian, and
2: Christianity, it so happens, is the majority religion in the U.S."


1. Being Jewish was not at all fulfilling because the way 99% of Jews practice it, it doesnt accept its own King
2. Maybe in the South. have you tuened on the tube lately? is this really a Christian culture? Being a Christian is hardly easy socially.

"I also have no desire to hear about how you saw the light at a Van Halen concert"

You dont have to hear anything? I didnt make you read anything or respond to anything.

"By the way you might want to look into Islamic proof"

thats a start of a sentence you dont hear everyday. This is your substance filled rebuttal? the Koran?

"Jesus' idea of the role of a messiah might have been Jewish, but the ideas that the gospel writers brought to the table were not."

The Gospel writers allegiance was to their God through His son Jesus Christ, not the Jewish religion. This is the mentality that had the pharisees say Jesus couldnt be the Son of God because he perform miracles on the Sabbath.
stuck in religion when God is right in front of them.

"But you're not going to make any progress with those of us who know our own heritage."

How do you know? You speak for all Jews?

Again, im just offering up reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus. What do you believe in and why?

Jesus Loves You.

[3 to be 4]

Now THAT moved me.

I must say to 3tobe4, whenever you explain why you believe what you believe you state "because it is written in the scriptures". Have to tell you, my good man, that is about the weakest basis possible. I could say I believe Tom Brady used steroids because "it is written" by some troll on the fan forum.

History is replete with revisionism. He who owns the pen (and the sword) has written most of world history. Don't you find it odd how almost every culture depicts God or Jesus as looking exactly like themselves? How many blonde haired blue eyed (or at least light skinned) Jesus' have been portrayed by Papal artists? African Christians tend to portray Jesus as black. The same can be said for Christianity's and traditional Judaism's depiction of the Creator as a man. A man with emotions. He. Him. Let's face facts - - human beings are incredibly NARCISSISTIC!. Someone in the 1970's, coined my favorite line: "God is black, and is SHE ever angry!"

The depiction of God as "one of us" would perhaps be seen as a great insult and upset the Creator if the Creator actually was so much like us to have emotions. Anthropomorphizing the Creator may make people "feel good and familiar". It is comforting to people. That's what so many religions are about.

In ancient times, with limited science (a bad word to traditional Christians through the ages - - right up to George "no stem cells, ozone or NASA funding" Bush) humans did not understand why the sun set or thunderstorms occurred. Think about it. Before science illuminated our understanding, people could go mad with fear living outside at the whim of nature. People (understandably) craved a reason why these dangerous events occurred. Many cultures invented stories and gods as a means of comforting the masses. Greek and Roman mythology, the Torah, the New Testament, Native American myths, etc. - - all replete with explanations of how God (or gods) were actively making these natural events occur. As John Lennon sang "Whatever Gets You Through the Night, It's Alright".

Well, most of us today don't live in caves or tents anymore. We aren't subject to the ravages of nature on a daily basis. We understand what causes lightning and thunder and floods to occur. It is not a complete mystery like it was to those scared, exposed ancestors. We don't need the crutch of inventing some kindly old man with a beard who floats up in the sky who has a son who lived down here who was conceived in an immaculate fashion. To me that is as ridiculous as my own religion's story of God parting the Red Sea so that the Hebrew slaves could escape Egypt. Today, we would understand it as a Tsunami or hurricane that whipped up sections of a body of water at a narrow point.

If leaning on "well, it is written in the Scriptures" gets you through the night, fine. I choose light and understanding (along with a healthy and humble acceptance that I need not invent stories to explain what I do not know). I love what I know and love knowing that I do not know everything. Perhaps I am not supposed to know all the mysteries of the universe. However, I do pity those who are so upset about not knowing certain mysteries of the universe that they desperately have to invent faerie tales. Just like our ancestral cave dwellers.



honestly, i dont really care what Jesus looked like. Because he looks fine to me now.

im sorry you have more faith in your understanding than anything else.

You've written a lot on this topic. THe subject seems to have gone way back with you. Id love to hear more about your background with matters of the spirit and what made you reject it. I know for me, my heart was broken as a kid when my father become an alcoholic. I started blaming God. took me years to get back to a God, let alone Jesus.

What was the one moment when you said "No way. Not for me"?

[shmessy]

It’s very interesting to me how a simple little post of a link to a web site can set of such a fire storm among all of you “enlightened” “freethinking” champions of tolerance, with nary a shred mind you, of any type of substantial rebuttal. If you disagree and would like to offer a point by point rebuttal of the claims made by the authors of the web site then do so, but please stop the incessant attacks against this mans world view.

PatsFaninVA (that’s way too long , we are going to have to come up with an abbreviation), you say you have slogged this argument out time and again well……either do it again or stop with the innuendo. Do you want to debate some of the issues you, kind of, addressed? Great! Otherwise, let it go.

Shmessy; would you like to debate the veracity and authenticity of Scripture? Evolutionary science vs. I.D? Great! Otherwise, you can do the same.

Clonamery, would you like to champion your pluralistic world view in a serious debate between it and Christianity? Great! Otherwise…….well you know the drill;)

I don’t understand the need to take pot shots at this guy for honestly expressing what he believes. It would be one thing if you simply cordially disagreed with him, but the open antagonism and sarcasm (kind of like what I posted above), is that really productive, or necessary? Did it make your day? Think before you write, that is one of the great benefits of a forum like this, don’t waste it. Take care, CPF

Actually, I find this debate fascinating and very invigorating. What about this free exchange of ideas worries you so much? Does open questioning threaten your belief? Sorry if you have been offended.

There are people who love you.

[shmessy]

honestly, i dont really care what Jesus looked like. Because he looks fine to me now.

im sorry you have more faith in your understanding than anything else.

You've written a lot on this topic. THe subject seems to have gone way back with you. Id love to hear more about your background with matters of the spirit and what made you reject it. I know for me, my heart was broken as a kid when my father become an alcoholic. I started blaming God. took me years to get back to a God, let alone Jesus.

What was the one moment when you said "No way. Not for me"?

I've never said "No way, not for me". I have embraced spiritualism with ecstasy. This life is beautiful and I am so fortunate for the love I experience. We are all truly blessed.

Who says I reject "matters of the spirit"? If you read my posts, you'll plainly see that I feel VERY spiritual. Just a different spiritualism than you. Pretty judgemental thinking that your spiritualism is the only one out there, but people from other religions and beliefs do that also, so you're not alone.

I feel for you that you experienced great pain in your family in the past. I have been incredibly fortunate to this point (not through anything that I have done) and have felt no need to "blame God".

Remember, there are people who love you.

[3 to be 4]

Actually, I find this debate fascinating and very invigorating. What about this free exchange of ideas worries you so much? Does open questioning threaten your belief? Sorry if you have been offended.

There are people who love you.

Im glad you are invigorated. I am too. this has kind of fired me up to new levels this week. Thank you.

Im not sure, however, he sounded threatened. But he can answer for himself I guess. It was kind of nice to hear another Christian jump into the mix.

[Clonamery]

It’s very interesting to me how a simple little post of a link to a web site can set of such a fire storm among all of you “enlightened” “freethinking” champions of tolerance, with nary a shred mind you, of any type of substantial rebuttal. If you disagree and would like to offer a point by point rebuttal of the claims made by the authors of the web site then do so, but please stop the incessant attacks against this mans world view.

PatsFaninVA (that’s way too long , we are going to have to come up with an abbreviation), you say you have slogged this argument out time and again well……either do it again or stop with the innuendo. Do you want to debate some of the issues you, kind of, addressed? Great! Otherwise, let it go.

Shmessy; would you like to debate the veracity and authenticity of Scripture? Evolutionary science vs. I.D? Great! Otherwise, you can do the same.

Clonamery, would you like to champion your pluralistic world view in a serious debate between it and Christianity? Great! Otherwise…….well you know the drill;)

I don’t understand the need to take pot shots at this guy for honestly expressing what he believes. It would be one thing if you simply cordially disagreed with him, but the open antagonism and sarcasm (kind of like what I posted above), is that really productive, or necessary? Did it make your day? Think before you write, that is one of the great benefits of a forum like this, don’t waste it. Take care, CPF

CPF: I'll let it go if you promise never to tell me what to write, think, feel, believe or say to another human being on this forum because you aren't a God or a Mod. Deal?

[3 to be 4]

CPF: I'll let it go if you promise never to tell me what to write, think, feel, believe or say to another human being on this forum because you aren't a God or a Mod. Deal?

What a minute: Fairness Alert!

this side has withstood a fair share off hostility and sarcasm for posting "reasons to believe....." in something.

CPF, thank you jumping into the fray.

Good morning, everyone. It a beautiful day. Jesus Loves You.

[shmessy]

What a minute: Fairness Alert!

this side has withstood a fair share off hostility and sarcasm for posting "reasons to believe....." in something.

CPF, thank you jumping into the fray.

Good morning, everyone. It a beautiful day. Jesus Loves You.

Fairness Alert: The posting concerned "Reasons for a certain people to CHANGE their beliefs" - - there's a difference there that you innocently (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, here) gloss over.

It IS a beautiful day. And there are people who love you :)

[Clonamery]

What a minute: Fairness Alert!

this side has withstood a fair share off hostility and sarcasm for posting "reasons to believe....." in something.

CPF, thank you jumping into the fray.

Good morning, everyone. It a beautiful day. Jesus Loves You.

Nah, would never tell anyone what he said.

Any of my projections (sarcasm aside) were merely as examples that life works well for many outside the Christian paradigm whether you believe it or not - there are other 'reasons to believe.'

Not everyone that does not believe in Jesus does not lead a moral and ethical life that leads them to a deeper meaning here on earth or elsewhere. And also everyone that believes in Jesus (or belies that fact) does not lead a life of morality and goodness.

I am merely stating there are alternatives that may work for what is proposed by that website and you. You can agree or not.

You wanted to debate your beliefs, etc., CPF did not want others to because he felt you were being harmed in some way. He said we should only debate what the website had to offer. He said we were not thinking before we wrote. He said there was antagonism and sarcasm that was unfounded.

I am sure he will explain his real meaning at a later date.

What is undebatable is that you value what you believe in. Fine. What is debatable is whether anyone else wants to value what you believe in versus what they already hold to be true FOR THEM.

Any hostility expressed you both obviously do not want to understand it. I understand it but it is not my 'cross to bear.' I am not a Jew. But yet I do not believe in Jesus the way you do.

I will let it go because it is too much like discussing topics in the political forum where nothing is gained because there is more concern about being right than finding some understanding.

I am sure also that Shmessy can and will explain it better than myself.

[shmessy]

Nah, would never tell anyone what he said.

Any of my projections (sarcasm aside) were merely as examples that life works well for many outside the Christian paradigm whether you believe it or not - there are other 'reasons to believe.'

Not everyone that does not believe in Jesus does not lead a moral and ethical life that leads them to a deeper meaning here on earth or elsewhere. And also everyone that believes in Jesus (or belies that fact) does not lead a life of morality and goodness.

I am merely stating there are alternatives that may work for what is proposed by that website and you. You can agree or not.

You wanted to debate your beliefs, etc., CPF did not want others to because he felt you were being harmed in some way. He said we should only debate what the website had to offer. He said we were not thinking before we wrote. He said there was antagonism and sarcasm that was unfounded.

I am sure he will explain his real meaning at a later date.

What is undebatable is that you value what you believe in. Fine. What is debatable is whether anyone else wants to value what you believe in versus what they already hold to be true FOR THEM.

Any hostility expressed you both obviously do not want to understand it. I understand it but it is not my 'cross to bear.' I am not a Jew. But yet I do not believe in Jesus the way you do.

I will let it go because it is too much like discussing topics in the political forum where nothing is gained because there is more concern about being right than finding some understanding.

I am sure also that Shmessy can and will explain it better than myself.

I would just add that I respect 3tobe4's openness and intellectual curiosity.
CPF is a different situation. He is far more closed off and evidently feels threatened by voices "not from the choir".

[3 to be 4]

Fairness Alert: The posting concerned "Reasons for a certain people to CHANGE their beliefs" - - there's a difference there that you innocently (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, here) gloss over.

It IS a beautiful day. And there are people who love you :)


again, WHY? people every day of the week attempt to persuade other people to see their way about something. You dont express your point of views here? You wouldnt like someone who disagrees with you the war to see it your way?
If im mean about, if I say "You people are so dumb" et etc that would be HORRIBLE. offering a way to look at something differently is not offensive UNLESS you are not on firm ground.

If a Jewish disagrees with my logic or my interpretation of what i present, please, let me hear it so I can maybe learn!
But why get all up in arms because Ive been given what I feel is the gift of Grace of knowing Jesus and I want to share that?

But believe me, i understand it. I was the same way. I got SO angry when someone even hinted to me anything about Jesus. And i never had a decent answer other than feeling that same "how dare you" stance.

Because, for me, and im only speaking FOR ME, after all i had thought, all i said, all i had been told, and after all those rotten Christians I myself had experienced, my ego told me NO WAY. Not Jesus. EVER.
because if i believed in Jesus, I would have to admit I was wrong, and those Christians were right.
Id have to come to terms with the Guilt of not believing in Him all those years. And id have to face all those other Jews, and all those relatives from all those Hannukkah parties and passovers et etc and hear the smirks and how " hes crazy anyway". So i pushed Christ away, and wouldnt read any religious scripture or be open to any of it. and called myself a Jew because I ate bagels, lox, and cream cheese at Kupels Deli and knew a few yiddish words.

I see that today in Israel, Jews are talking about a Messiah coming, a different one, ANY Messiah, as long as its not Jesus. Couldnt be him. Even though the Old Testament that Jews wrote talk about him quite clearly. clearly, if you'll look. And read. the other 2,999 Jewish prophets may have been quite tortured. But again, what prophesies in Psalms or Isaiah did they fulfill? This man did.

Im not asking you to believe me. Be open. Pray for the truth to be revealed to you. take the time and read the link. Read the prophesies and compare it to the Gospels written by eyewitnesses, all of whom would die without recanting. You can say its ALL bunk and everyone was nuts and lying.

But again, why?

Why is not possible for it to be true?

And why do i keep going on about it. Because I love football. I love my life.
this is all fun. But we are not everything, at least in my humble opinion,.

I believe this life is a blink of an eye. And then what? Whats it mean?

Nothing could more important to me. And I couldnt be more sincere when I say i do this out of love, for my God commands it of me.

Some see Jesus, and they see Christianity as they've known it. It doesnt have to be that way.

I see Jesus , and I see Love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yMc90WDrow

[PatsFanInVa]

It’s very interesting to me how a simple little post of a link to a web site can set of such a fire storm among all of you “enlightened” “freethinking” champions of tolerance, with nary a shred mind you, of any type of substantial rebuttal...

PatsFaninVA (that’s way too long , we are going to have to come up with an abbreviation), you say you have slogged this argument out time and again well……either do it again or stop with the innuendo. Do you want to debate some of the issues you, kind of, addressed? Great! Otherwise, let it go. ...

Let me state my point of view, CPF:

NO, I don't want to debate your issues. THAT IS MY POINT.

It is offensive to be proselytized to. It is an ugly habit of some religions to proselytize. I do not do it, and it bothers me. I wish for those who attempt to prosyletize to me, to stop. It is annoying and insulting.

This whole THREAD is insulting by nature. It is not saying "here are some reasons I believe." It singles out one religious group to bother with an assinine conversion appeal. Not people of all faiths, mind you. Just people of my faith.

I have no desire to debate you on the topic, or to debate 3 to B. I feel quite secure in the knowledge that your "proofs" would end up only working in a sealed vacuum, with every consequence assumed in the premise, and would fall apart in the light of deeper inquiry. This has always been the pattern in the past when some newly brainwashed yahoo has taken this tack with me, and I see no reason for it to be different now. And oddly enough, regardless of how outclassed said yahoo turns out to be, his reaction is always that he still believes arguments he can not show to be true. This is the nature of faith.

The point is, NO, I don't want to debate you, to satisfy your theological need to erase my people, or your psychological need to rationalilze your own religious choices.

For 3 to B: if in fact your belief is that you must debate religious beliefs, why do you laugh off the idea that you should accept the challenge of the Qur'an? After all, the Qur'an is as much holy scripture to you, as the Gospels are to me. The Qur'an rehashes scenes from both the Torah and the Greek Bible through its own interpretive lens, just as the Greek Bible distorts and often plain old misquotes the Hebrew Bible, from the point of view of its own theological needs. It makes as much sense for me to demand that you understand your need to lay down your trinitarianism for the truth of Islam, as for you to demand I read " 'Old Testament' [sic] reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus."

Do you see how assinine such "challenges" are yet? Of course not, because this is the sort of thing you're itching for, so you can spew the usual cookie-cutter mumbo jumbo we've all heard a thousand times before. This is why I don't watch summer reruns, particularly when the show insulted my intelligence on it's first run.

Jews do not recognize Jesus as their king. Christians do. You should at least have the balls to call yourself a Christian, rather than a Jew, but I also understand your desire to hang on to the "pedigree." Knock yourself out. Tell everybody how you're Jewish but Christian, and while you're at it, call yourself both Democrat and Republican, both rich and poor, both black and white, whatever. THAT does not affect me.

When you direct posts specifically to me and my co-religionists, however, singling us out to challenge our religion -- not directing yourself to any other community on earth -- you show your colors. You are a theological anti-semite, regardless of what faith your grandfather practiced.

It is ugly, it is anti-Semitic, and I want you to know there are those of us who know this game well enough to call it what it is.

Go talk to Christians about Jesus. You can no longer burn real Jews for refusing invitations to a "disputation." And you can no longer silence those of us who understand what you are -- far better, it seems, than you do.

PFnV

[CPF]

Actually, I find this debate fascinating and very invigorating. What about this free exchange of ideas worries you so much?

This hasn’t been an exchange of ideas, this has been you, among others, scolding someone for having a worldview that you disagree with. You haven’t had any semblance of a point by point exchange of views that I can see. The topic of the thread has to do with a website that offers reasons why Jews should accept Christ as their Messiah. Yet you feel it is a good opportunity to belittle people who have a certain religious belief instead of dealing with the issues raised on the web site which, by the way, happens to be the topic of this thread.

Does open questioning threaten your belief? Sorry if you have been offended.

Actually, I believe I was the one that invited you to have a serious debate about some of the “questions” you have raised. I’m not threatened at all, I have been defending my faith in this type of venue for a number of years and if anything it has only made my religious convictions that much stronger. I’m willing to have a serious conversation regarding any issue you would like, of course we would have to start a new thread because the topic of this one is…….well you know. What I will not put up with are pot shots and innuendo. If you want to have a serious, point by point discussion, let me know.

There are people who love you.

Oh I know……I know

“I am giving you a new commandment to love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. This is how everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." Jesus Christ


Take care, CPF

[CPF]

CPF: I'll let it go if you promise never to tell me what to write, think, feel, believe or say to another human being on this forum because you aren't a God or a Mod. Deal?

You know Clonamery, I think I owe you an apology. I just went back over everything you wrote in this thread and couldn't really find a sarcastic or inflamatory comment, as amatter of fact you seem to be quite nice. I'm sorry for just lumping you in with those I feel have been "less" than congenial. You have every right to think, believe or say anything you wish, I would never try to put a gag in anyones mouth. I was simply trying to encourage everyone here to take full advantage of the time given to us, by a venue such as this, to properly compose our thoughts and couch them in a way that evokes intelligent conversation as oposed to animosity and antagonism. Again I am sorry for misrepresenting you. Take care, CPF

[CPF]

Let me state my point of view, CPF:

Oh by all means.

NO, I don't want to debate your issues. THAT IS MY POINT.

Then don’t proceed in posting anything further to this thread. THAT IS MY POINT ( my goodness it’s a bit invigorating posting in all capitals, I’m going to have to try that more often)

It is offensive to be proselytized to. It is an ugly habit of some religions to proselytize. I do not do it, and it bothers me. I wish for those who attempt to prosyletize to me, to stop. It is annoying and insulting.

You could simply choose not to read the post or the website it links to.

Let me ask you this; what is more noble, to feel you have found the only way to gain salvation and a relationship with God and a) Share it with everyone you come in contact with so that they can have the same thing or b)Keep it to yourself, reap all of it’s benefits and share it with no one for fear you may offend them?

You feel you have a relationship with God through Judaism do you not? Do you not feel that the Jewish nation is God’s chosen people? Does the Scripture not indicate that in order to have favor with God one must become a proselyte of the Judaic faith? Why then would you not want to share your beliefs with anyone willing to listen? If you don’t want to listen to Christians share their faith then don’t….nobody is making you listen.

This whole THREAD is insulting by nature. It is not saying "here are some reasons I believe." It singles out one religious group to bother with an assinine conversion appeal. Not people of all faiths, mind you. Just people of my faith.

Again you could simply choose not to engage in the debate if it insults you instead of simply lashing out with ad hominem attack.

I have no desire to debate you on the topic, or to debate 3 to B. I feel quite secure in the knowledge that your "proofs" would end up only working in a sealed vacuum, with every consequence assumed in the premise, and would fall apart in the light of deeper inquiry. This has always been the pattern in the past when some newly brainwashed yahoo has taken this tack with me, and I see no reason for it to be different now. And oddly enough, regardless of how outclassed said yahoo turns out to be, his reaction is always that he still believes arguments he can not show to be true. This is the nature of faith. The point is, NO, I don't want to debate you, to satisfy your theological need to erase my people, or your psychological need to rationalilze your own religious choices.

Well, I for one am not “newly brainwashed”, I have been brainwashed for quite some time thank you very much.

I am quite sure you would thoroughly thrash 3 to be 4 and myself if we were ever to be graced with the opportunity to debate you, it’s just sad that you won’t give us “yahoos” the chance to fall before your rapier intellect, oh well….se la vie. Take care, CPF

[shmessy]

I think this thread has run it's course for me, at this point.

Thank you 3tobe4 for a very positive and healthy exchange of ideas. I admire you and your search. There's no way I can say I "know" what you are about from a mere thread, however, I think I have a picture from this. I admire you for bouncing back from the previous unfortunate life circumstances with such an intense and earnest search for making a positive life. Whether it's through Jesus or anything else, I'm rooting for you.

CPF, however, keep talking at people while expecting them not to have any ideas of their own - - that works wonders!

For me, 3to be 4 opened the door for this interesting exchange and CPF closed it.

(By the way, CPF, it is ethical when you quote someone as you did in the previous post, to identify whom you are quoting).

[PatsFanInVa]

Shmessy, you're much more patient than I am at this point; the troll was quoting at me, not you... I didn't know from what you were saying, whether you saw that. I've honestly had a mixed bag of interactions with 3 to B, and am sure he truly believes whatever he comes out with in any given period of a few days, and he's very earnest and don't mean nothin' by it, etc. I'm just out of patience with the whole "Oooh look! A Jew! I'm a gonna convert him, ma!" phenomenon. So you're a better man than I, to remain so civil!

CPF, please seek professional counseling to address your control issues.

I'll post as much as I like to this thread, in order to make known to anybody who is not wearing culturally imposed blinders, that this thread is by nature anti-Semitic. This form of proselytizing, by the standards of any thinking person, can only be described as anti-Semitic. This should be known, or at least considered, by both those who engage in it, and by third parties.

The easiest thing to do is to soak up the mindset of the dominant religious group, in a given culture. In the West, that culture is Christianisty, and has been since Constantine first saw a vision of a cross in Roman times, and then proceded to install Christianity as one of Rome's state religions. You can whine and moan about Christians being mistreated, scorned, etc., every time someone disagrees with you, but Christianity is the dominent western religious mindset, and you and I both know it. Hence, it's become "okay" for Christians, by virtue of this rude habit of proselytizing, to insult people of every other faith.

Someone simply needs to say: It's not okay. Is anybody censoring it? Of course not. Just as nobody censors the American Nazis. The fact that it is not illegal, does not make proselytizing okay to me. Your proselytizing disgusts me, because it makes assumptions about my own religious needs, etc., which are not your business. Beyond that, you single out one preexistent "parent" religious group -- Judaism -- to receive your cookie-cutter platitudes which are meant to be some sort of theological revelation. It also just so happens that Jews happily living Jewish lives, stands in the way of Christianity reaching its historical goal, and that creates a theological and psychological impetus to proselytize to Jews.

It's time someone simply tells Christians who think this way: THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM, not mine, and I'm not making it mine.

I have seen crap like this since probably before you were a gleam in your pappy's eye, assuming he understood the act that led to procreation. Let me explain what it's like to be targeted for this - it's like being stalked by the various Christian churches. What are you guys, that you don't understand your persistence is not holy, and not effective, but plain old annoying? Being a Jew targeted by Christian evangelists is like being in a goddam zombie movie sometimes.

I am not going to request that the thread be taken down because it is bigoted by nature, since it is one of our more socially accepted bigotries that Jews should be singled out, out of all our citizens, for attempts at brainwashing by proselytizers. Thus, I do not think your theological anti-Semitism will be challenged in that way, by myself or others.

Beyond that, I am an advocate of freedom of speech.

But I'll write as much or as little as I want here, despite your insistence that only Christians and sheep are really entitled to their opinions. And I have neither desire nor inclination to waste my time with
with specious -- not to mention unoriginal -- misreadings of the Hebrew bible, when the very thread brings up a problem I see as much more damaging that the inability of Jews to believe in Christian doctrine; that is the pernicious, rude, anti-semitic habit of preaching Christianity to Jews. In other nations, the Church enlisted the help of the state, and forcibly converted Jews, in some cases, forced Jews to listen to sermons, and then killed their relatives in front of them when they did not convert (which made it "of their own free will.") In other countries, to avoid this sort of thing, Christians are not allowed to proselytize, and of course, the very same churches that happily converted others by the sword now scream "Oppression!"

Here, we're right in the middle: Christians have this form of bigotry buttressed by our very legal framework. After all you do have freedom of speech, within limits. And, as you say, the test of that limit is whether I can walk away.

Well I choose not to walk away and I choose not to discuss your cherry-picked passages of a book you insist on misinterpreting in the first place. I choose instead to discuss the bigoted practice of singling out Jews for prosyletizing.

But since you are of a mind to claim Jews have some sort of obligation to discuss your misinterpretations, in order to be considered "open minded", I think you are the one who needs to open your mind first, to show me the way, and read as much as is available about the other religions of the world, particularly Islam.

Since Islam followed Christianity, it had that good old "new way to read your holy book" capability, whereas Judaism's canon was set at Christianity's outset.

As such, how can it hurt you just to read Mohammad's words of wisdom about Christians, Christianity, the crucifixion, Jesus' nature, and other topics you find so important? So many Christians converted to Islam when it was the ascendent movement... Are you "threatened" that you will be the next to "see the light?"

If you want Jews to be "open minded" and inquire after your man-God, it seems you should be just as open minded and inquire after Islamic wisdom as regards Jesus. And what does that sort of question get me? Christians scorn me for suggesting you look into the Qur'an.

Well, that makes no sense at all. You have a great need for the Qur'an, since it was written later than the Greek bible, and therefore, must be an improvement, no? I mean that's the argument of Christianity vis a vis Judaism, so shouldn't it be true of Islam vis a vis Christianity?

The Qur'an tells what the Christian gospels were really all about, just like Christian preachers routinely explain the real purpose of the Hebrew bible -- shouldn't you know what the Qur'an has to say?

How can you judge without seriously considering the challenge of Islam? So, attend to your own "challenges."

Unless you are simply a hypocrite.

Something tells me that's the case: Proselytizing is fine, if it's not your ox being gored.

PFnV

[shmessy]

My intial reaction to 3tobe4's original posts was similar to yours, PFinVa, however, I feel he is genuinely searching and means no harm. I do think he naively ignores the history, and current day issues with strong arm proselytizing aimed at the Jewish people. There is no where NEAR the amount of time and money spent by Christian evangelists on proselytizing to Moslems or Buddhists (though they are far more numerous and are evrywhere). A very good soul searching question for proselytizing Christians would be "Why so much of our time and energy is focused on such a small target?". "Why is it SO important to us to eliminate the last vestiges of such a people?" Why is there no well-funded group named "Moslems for Jesus" or "Hindus for Jesus"? Now THAT would be a very interesting answer! (Although I am inclined to think that it may lie very close to PatsFaninVa's theory in the above post).

As I mentioned, I find 3tobe4 a very earnest and well-meaning person who just might not be attuned to the very real historical and current context of why any Jew who is happy and satisfied with his/her faith would bristle at uninvited preaching.

CPF on the other hand is just close minded and disrespectful. I choose not need to even waste my time with that.

In the meantime, PFinVa, rest assured, I am even more proud, dedicated to and fulfilled by my Jewishness after this thread than I was before it. Doesn't mean any other religions are "wrong" or are "missing the truth". Judaism works for me and my family. Hopefully everyone can respect "I'm OK, You're OK".

[PatsFanInVa]

I've got no doubt, Shmessy. I'm sure I come off as doctrinaire myself here; much of that is born of pure irritation.

The irritation comes from the notion that any of this is "new" to someone who's been hearing it for over 40 years.

The elephant in the middle of the room is the nature of prosyletizing itself. It's considered sacrosanct, because someone claims it is necessary to one specific read of the Greek bible.

This may be the case. The fact that many people believe it to be the case, make it a feature of various sects of Christianity.

Therefore, this active insult to other religions, rises to the level of a feature of Christianity, for these adherents. Their stance is: We have no choice but to insult all those around us. It's part of Christianity to grotesquely distort Judaism for propaganda purposes. And if you say otherwise -- or even point this out -- voila! You're the one who's "anti-Christian."

In a word, yech.

Anyway... the Sox are on and need some good ol' "old testament [sic]" retribution against the Yankees, who I consider the Amalekites of our times (by the way, don't forget to forget those guys!)

Yours in...

Oh yeah.

PFnV

[shmessy]

I've got no doubt, Shmessy. I'm sure I come off as doctrinaire myself here; much of that is born of pure irritation.

The irritation comes from the notion that any of this is "new" to someone who's been hearing it for over 40 years.

The elephant in the middle of the room is the nature of prosyletizing itself. It's considered sacrosanct, because someone claims it is necessary to one specific read of the Greek bible.

This may be the case. The fact that many people believe it to be the case, make it a feature of various sects of Christianity.

Therefore, this active insult to other religions, rises to the level of a feature of Christianity, for these adherents. Their stance is: We have no choice but to insult all those around us. It's part of Christianity to grotesquely distort Judaism for propaganda purposes. And if you say otherwise -- or even point this out -- voila! You're the one who's "anti-Christian."

In a word, yech.

Anyway... the Sox are on and need some good ol' "old testament [sic]" retribution against the Yankees, who I consider the Amalekites of our times (by the way, don't forget to forget those guys!)

Yours in...

Oh yeah.

PFnV


*****-ing Amalikites!!!! :)

[PatsFanInVa]

*****-ing Amalikites!!!! :)

Remember to forget Amalek!!!

[3 to be 4]

Wow! take 24 hours away and look at what you miss! I sense a little anger out there.

first off, the reason this site was shared directly at Jews is that I am particularly interested in my own people. To attach what I shared with anything that was done to Jews in the past is just ridiculous. (Nazi's? c'mon, PVIV) Did you READ the first paragraph of the article? It quite clearly addressed the outrageous behavior of Christians towards Jews. I used the term "false Christians" because anyone who would behave in such a way obviously has not received the Holy Spirit. They may call themselves Christian, but their actions are not of Christ.

Being called a Bigot and an anti-Semite for spreading the Gospel is more a reflection on the accuser. I have repeatledly reminded that the article stated reasons to believe in something. If you disagree, instead of throwing up your hands and shouting BIGOT and calling me names, try either answering why they are not valid reasons, or maybe send me a site "reasons for Christians to not believe in Jesus", or if it makes you this upset, dont keep reading.

PatsFaninVa, you are more intelligent than what you've shown with your name calling and accusations today. If I firmly believe that for me as Jew I should accept Jesus as my King (and there are more of us out there than you might think) than who are you to tell me what I should have the ***** to call myself?

Now THAT was insulting, and its something I did not do. Dont resort to childish swearing and name calling and crying Anti-Semite when you cant come up with anything else.

Ive lost my share of relatives to Anti-Semitism. I dont need lectures from anybody about it.

For all the exchanges back and forth between the posters on this thread, what is just as exciting to me are the over 300 views to it. Folks are reading, and a lot of what Ive said throughout this thread isnt just for the ones who have responded, but the ones reading.

Today I was at a Promise Keepers Conference in Kansas City with over 10,000
other men. The music, the messages, the power was awesome. I watched as 293 men gave themselves to the Lord. I am so thankful and grateful that God had brought to that place on this day to witness that. It was certainly greater than being at any sporting event.

We heard a speaker tell a great story about how Jesus didnt go to the best and the richest. He went to 2 fishermen and said "Follow Me". They werent the most learned and educated but He chose them. He doesnt come to best and the brightest. He comes to everyday people.

Later, when Peter saw Jesus out walking on the water and went to walk too and he started to have trouble and shouted for Jesus to help him, Jesus did so and said "You of little faith..." Peter didnt lack Faith in Jesus. He lacked faith in himself.
But Jesus didnt lack Faith in Peter, and he doesnt lack Faith in any of you.

Im sorry about the lousy job Christians have done in the past communicating Jesus Christ to you. Even today, many Christians focus on the scary stuff and leave out the best part, the Good News of the Love He has for us.
He doesnt want Religion or Legalism. Jesus died himself, because of those things. He didnt come to condemn. He came to give Life and He told us to love one another.

I am sorry if my sharing of what Christ has done for me, or what the Book I rely on as the Word of God says to me about Him, is interpreted by some as "Assaulting", "Attacking", "Anti-Semitic", or "Bigoted". I believe that many Jewish people base much of their beliefs on the Old Testament. There are many Jews like myself that do so as well and based on what they've read have drawn the conclusion that Jesus Christ was and is the Messiah talked about.
anyone has the option to disagree.

[3 to be 4]

My intial reaction to 3tobe4's original posts was similar to yours, PFinVa, however, I feel he is genuinely searching and means no harm. I do think he naively ignores the history, and current day issues with strong arm proselytizing aimed at the Jewish people. There is no where NEAR the amount of time and money spent by Christian evangelists on proselytizing to Moslems or Buddhists (though they are far more numerous and are evrywhere). A very good soul searching question for proselytizing Christians would be "Why so much of our time and energy is focused on such a small target?". "Why is it SO important to us to eliminate the last vestiges of such a people?" Why is there no well-funded group named "Moslems for Jesus" or "Hindus for Jesus"? Now THAT would be a very interesting answer! (Although I am inclined to think that it may lie very close to PatsFaninVa's theory in the above post).

As I mentioned, I find 3tobe4 a very earnest and well-meaning person who just might not be attuned to the very real historical and current context of why any Jew who is happy and satisfied with his/her faith would bristle at uninvited preaching.

CPF on the other hand is just close minded and disrespectful. I choose not need to even waste my time with that.

In the meantime, PFinVa, rest assured, I am even more proud, dedicated to and fulfilled by my Jewishness after this thread than I was before it. Doesn't mean any other religions are "wrong" or are "missing the truth". Judaism works for me and my family. Hopefully everyone can respect "I'm OK, You're OK".


Why Jews?
1. Jesus was Jewish. So were the disciples. So were the writers of the Old Testament. Jews are Gods chosen people. Israel is Gods. Its kind of natural.
2. Judaism and Christianity is pretty darn close. Maybe thats why we have the term Judeo-Christian? seems to be only one big difference, interpretation of who the Messiah is. Once you get past that, there is no difference really. Christians have a rich Jewish heritage to acknowledge as their King is Jewish. And Jews....well i wont go into that again.
3. this may be part of #1. As our King is Jewish, for Christians who are practicing it right , there is a natural love for Jews. I know. I know.
but i'll remind you, im no rubber stamp for the idiocy of most Christians.
4. There is no such connection to Muslims of Buddhists, although its false to assume or imply that Christians arent going all over the world spreading the Gospel to all who will hear.

Again, i understand the resistance. I was there too.

I didnt want to risk offending my mother either. So i hardly mentioned the Gospel to her so as to not show "lack of respect" She knew i became a follower of Jesus. But that was it. So i kept quiet. And in March she died.

So Im not worried about someone else getting all bent out of shape simply because I share the Gospel. They can accept it or reject it. But im not holding back the information anymore.
If im mean, abusive or terribly inpolite about it, thats one thing. But giving an article listing scriptural reasons, from a scripture that the people in question have a connection to, or sharing my own testimony, does not fall into those categories.

Jesus Loves You

[PatsFanInVa]

3toB, Shmessy is right. You are blithe and naive about your actions, and quite likely believe them to be a way to "share love," your own and Jesus', with non-apostate Jews. I understand you believe that 2,000 years of history has no bearing on Jews' feelings toward Christian proselytizing. I further understand that you gloss over the inherently insulting nature of the practice, because it is sanctioned and encouraged within Christianity.

In essence, although what you are doing is by nature an act of disrespect toward other well-meaning individuals, you believe it to be sanctioned for their betterment, and you approach your task as one of love.

You consider this just fine, because the object of your love rejects you and asks you to desist, but does not know how much he needs your love, and how happy he would be were he just to accept your unwanted advances.

And because one is always free not to respond; and because your unwanted advances are not technically illegal, given that we in America value free speech; and because you really feel like making unwanted advances to people of another religion; you believe you are doing the right thing.

You are not. When someone truly does not accept your advances, it is obnoxious to persist.

This has been the case for the vast majority of Jews vis a vis Christian proselytizers such as yourself, for a period of nearly 2,000 years.

And when the advances are rejected, Christians have often resorted to force. Of course, you make your unwanted advances without recourse to force, and so claim that violent proponents of these advances are morally inferior to non-violent ones.

I do understand you believe yourself to be acting in a historical vacuum, acting without a need to consider the wishes of those you proselytize to, and acting out of love, and believe yourself to be fully justified by what you believe to be The Truth, The Light, The Way, etc.

Other than this need to proselytize, and your lack of understanding of the inherent disrespect of this act, you seem to be a good-natured enough fellow.

You are caught in the unenviable position of needing, from a theological point of view, to disrespect others in order to fulfill your religious beliefs. It is a very scaled down version of the early Christian model, which led to Christianity's present position as the dominant faith of the West, i.e., conversion by the sword of those who disagree.

So, whereas it is self-evidently disrespectful to proselytize beliefs to those who reject your advances, like the admittedly much more invasive example of the Crusader, you nevertheless insist that it is somehow "okay."

I will grant you the difference: your persistence in unwanted advances is protected by freedom of speech and religion, whereas forced conversion isn't. But the basis in disrespect for the "other" is the same.

I hope I have made clear why I, and many other non-apostate Jews, maintain that proselytizing is by its nature disrespectful of the beliefs of the non-Christian, though I think the nature of your own belief system is likely to discount reason in this regard.

I've given you an equivalent case, however, the "challenge" of disproving the assertions in the Qur'an regarding the life and message of Jesus. This is precisely the equivalent of what you propose for me to do regarding the Hebrew Bible -- to examine it a posteriori through the filter of Christianity.

I notice that you declined to take my challenge seriously. I did not think you would, because it is -- like your subject -- inherently insulting to tell you you do not know your own religion, or "need" another religion's guidance.

Or, for that matter, to "challenge" you to disprove another religion, as if your own were on trial.

You and I both have encountered this "challenge" in the past. From the sounds of things, I encountered it far more often than you. It is quite telling how young proselytizers react when their aims are frustrated -- with violence. Interesting, no? You, by contrast, decided the "challenge" of Christianity could not be denied. And, as is very common with converts, you evidence a psychological need for others to go through an equivalent experience. I can only read your behavior, not your mind; but I could imagine that, were I to convert, it would be comforting if the arguments which convinced me, also had the power to convince others. Since many strains of Christianity paint the religion as a "successor" to Judaism, this psychological need is by now also enshrined in theological doctrine.

As I've said before, in objective terms I've won quite a few such "challenges," but the hermetically sealed world of the proselytizer does not admit to the possibility of error on his own part, only on the part of the party being proselytized to.

So what possible incentive could anybody have to mop up yet another batch of someone else's religion's negative assesssments of one's own, so thoughtfully linked to in your site?

Certainly no more incentive, than your own "incentive" to disprove Islam.

PFnV

PS - Like Christianity, Islam concerns itself with "replacement theology," effectively supplanting the "parent religion" of Judaism. It also must concern itself with the behavior and belief systems of pre-existing Christians. Just as Christians see themselves as the "fulfillment" of Judaism, albeit by non-Jews (hence convenient Pauline pronouncements that, for example, circumcision is not necessary to be Christian, although it is necessary to be Jewish,) Muslims see themselves as the "successor faith" to Judaism, and see the figure of Jesus as a prophet, although Christians (in the Muslim viewpoint) understand Jesus poorly, and have become trinitarians -- a sort of less open-ended species of polytheist. In terms of rational debate, the viewpoint bears addressing, at least as much as a few cherry picked passages from the Hebrew Bible, presented to bolster the claims of Christianity, which self-consciously wrote its narrative specifically to address such passages.

The fact that I had to add this to the thread is again telling; now you will concern yourself with debating me, not an Islamic website or teacher, knowing I am not a Muslim. But you gave short shrift to the self-evident "need" for examination of Islam vis a vis your own beliefs. This first reaction would be anybody's natural reaction -- you want to grill me on the Qur'an??? I'm not a Muslim!!!

[3 to be 4]

at least you are a little more more rational, if not back to overly intellectual today. I cant really respond to much of this because I cant follow it. I find you are either trying to double talk me to show how brilliant you are, the Will Hunting of PatsFan.com, or you are screaming angry insults.

Can we just talk like regular people?
The reason why I wont go into why the Qur'an isnt as valid as the Bible is because the Bible is the word of God. The Qu'ran is not. But im not offended and insulted by the invitation. You also have quite a few Muslims in the world whose mission is to wipe out Christians and Jews. Leaving the Bush Administration aside, it is not the mission of Christians and Jews to wipe out Muslims. If you cant see that Christians are better friends to Jews than Muslims you need to turn on CNN a few more times.

BUT, again, the idea that you presented the idea of discussing the Qu'ran is NOT insulting to me. Or an assault. or disrespectful.

The fact you declare that "I understand you believe that 2,000 years of history has no bearing on Jews' feelings toward Christian proselytizing. I further understand that you gloss over the inherently insulting nature of the practice, because it is sanctioned and encouraged within Christianity."
shows an inability to listen to others.
How many times do I have to address this? Im not glossing it over. It was discussed in the original link and i have been clear about my own history.

You have been clear you do not follow written scripture. I do. Yet you propose, as many "Reform" Jews do, to speak for Jews. What makes you Jewish? Blood? Culture?

Im not rolling over to this. I may be like Taiwan claiming to be the real China, but I have more respect for Orthodox Jews who practice their religion, know their scripture, believe it, and live it passionately than someone who makes it very clear all written scripture isnt worth much, including his own "claimed" religion, makes a case the Qu'ran makes more sense to Jews than Christianity, and has such a inner hatred for Christians he'll accuse someone who presents a Case for Christ as being akin to a Neo-Nazi,a Bigot, an anti-semite just for believing in Jesus and (gasp) talking about. You even inferred that .....
"Of course, you make your unwanted advances without recourse to force, and so claim that violent proponents of these advances are morally inferior to non-violent ones."
......if I had the chance I would advocate violence??? and do you disagree that those who use violence are morally inferior?

Ive already asked about this buzzword you use constantly-proselytizing , as if it evil or something. Karl Rove has nothing on you.

one more word i want to dissect a bit

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Anti-Semitism \An`ti-Sem"i*tism\, n.
Opposition to, or hatred of, Semites, esp. Jews. --
An`ti-Sem"ite, n. -- An`ti-Sem*it"ic, a.


Im not in opposition to Jews, I am a Jew, and I practice it the way my Jewish King commanded. How do you practice it? A regular on Friday night are you?
Hatred of - Hatred of my own King, the writers of the Book I follow as the word of God? Of myself?

look, I understand the discomfort with the topic for a Jewish person. I was the same way for many years. I'll say again its not my intention to diss anyone. But it is also my commission to spread the Gospel, in a respectful way. I did so.

God is more important than political correctness. I apologize if im a little thrown off. Its not easy getting sworn at and accused of being a Nazi and/or Anti-Semite. And ive kind of had enough of "turning the other cheek".

In the end, Im not the one who best makes the case for Jesus Christ. Jesus himself does. He came to wash away the sins of people like me with his own blood. He took the lashes and the scorn and the humiliation so that we may have everlasting life. And He forgave us as he was being crucified. That kind of Love is beyond human comprehension. And still He loves us. And He will always stand by His people. His chosen people of Israel. Any Christian who follows the Bible knows this.

[CPF]

Shmessy: CPF, however, keep talking at people while expecting them not to have any ideas of their own - - that works wonders!

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with you having “ideas of your own”, twice I have indicated that I would be open to a free exchange of ideas on a number of subjects vis a vis the veracity of the New Testament and also the ToE vs. the ToID and the offer still stands.

Shmessy: For me, 3to be 4 opened the door for this interesting exchange and CPF closed it.

You know I think I may owe you an apology as well. I have spent some time going back over this entire thread and much like the case with Clonamery, I really can’t find anything you have written that is all that offensive. I guess as I initially read the posts I was angered by PFV’s comments and somehow I lumped you two into the fray as well. I let my emotions get the better of me, which is something I constantly strive not to do in these situations. Anyway, I’m sorry for being sarcastic and antagonistic in my comments to you, there really is no excuse for such behavior and as a result I will probably even have to tone it down with PFV, although that will be a struggle.

Shmessy: (By the way, CPF, it is ethical when you quote someone as you did in the previous post, to identify whom you are quoting).

I never really thought much about it, I just assumed everyone would recognize what they wrote. If it bothers you or others though I will be sure to identify those I quote in the future. Take care CPF

[PatsFanInVa]

at least you are a little more more rational, if not back to overly intellectual today. I cant really respond to much of this because I cant follow it. I find you are either trying to double talk me to show how brilliant you are, the Will Hunting of PatsFan.com, or you are screaming angry insults.

It seems strange that you can "never follow" the arguments that make matters clear intellectually, and take offense if others "speak from the heart" on a subject. In other words, there is always one or another excuse not to examine your own beliefs, rather than trumpet how very much you believe them.

Can we just talk like regular people?
The reason why I wont go into why the Qur'an isnt as valid as the Bible is because the Bible is the word of God. The Qu'ran is not.

The reason why I have no desire to examine Hebrew scripture as if it were written as a "lead-up" to Christianity, is that I believe in Hebrew scripture, just as you believe in the Christian bible. While you do not like how I believe in the Jewish scriptures, I do not read them as a lead-up to Christianity. So, this interpretation of Hebrew scripture is as invalid to me, as the Qur'an's interpretation of the Jesus narrative is to you.

Now I know this part is tough for you: I also believe that Orthodoxy is not the only path within Judaism, as do the majority of Jews.

Let me talk regular some more to ya. It's grotesque for you to presume to tell me what an "authentic" Jew is, particularly since you were evidently unable to retain your own connection with Judaism, choosing instead the dominant culture's religion.

You are a Jewish apostate to Christianity. It is what it is. I have no problem even with you calling yourself Jewish, especially since the Jewish tradition supports the claim, that your Jewish birth entitles you to say as much ("once a Jew always a Jew.")

I do, however, have a problem with an apostate convert to Christianity telling me how I'm not Jewish enough.

You also have quite a few Muslims in the world whose mission is to wipe out Christians and Jews. Leaving the Bush Administration aside, it is not the mission of Christians and Jews to wipe out Muslims.

On many occasions, both Christians and Muslims have vowed to wipe out all Jews. Suffice it to say, Muslims go so far as to fantasize about acts that Christian Europe actually committed. Oh by the way, moderate Muslims say extremist Muslims "aren't real Muslims" too. So don't even try that one.

The fact you declare that "I understand you believe that 2,000 years of history has no bearing on Jews' feelings toward Christian proselytizing...

Again, I need to cut characters. Your understanding of the history is incomplete, or you are just insensitive to the import of that history. It's not so much an "argument," as an excuse I made for you to help explain your offensive behavior as naivete rather than malice.

You have been clear you do not follow written scripture. I do. Yet you propose, as many "Reform" Jews do, to speak for Jews. What makes you Jewish? Blood? Culture?

Why the mocking quotes around "Reform," 3 to B? I propose speak for myself, and I am a Jew. I do, in fact, follow written scripture; however, how I follow it and how you follow it obviously differ, since you are a Christian, and I am a Jew. Within Judaism, I am not an orthodox Jew. But I will have a good laugh about this whole exchange recounting it with my orthodox brother in law.

If you doubt that my feeling toward proselytizing is representative of Jews, survey Orthodox, Reform, and Conservative shuls in your area, and conduct interviews as to whether they prefer to be proselytized to, or not to be proselytized to. I doubt you will find that the Christian Proselytizer is really the voice of the Jewish community.

but I have more respect for Orthodox Jews who practice their religion, know their scripture, believe it, and live it passionately than someone who makes it very clear all written scripture isnt worth much... .

First of all, thank you for pointing out again how little respect you have for my faith. The unmitigated chutzpah of a Christian attempting to dictate to a reform Jew, just how he should best be Jewish, is beneath contempt. It is grotesque, 3 to B.

Again, this is only your own bias, mixed with a good deal of libel. Suffice it to say, I respect my faith enough that I feel I earn the name Yisra'el, "Struggles with God," and have read the bible through a number of times. I also respect scripture enough that I have examined it from a number of angles: textual/literary, historical critical, allegorical, face-value, and yes, during a number of occasions, through the filter of other religions, Christianity and Islam, which approach the Torah as a subsidiary lead-in to their own claims.

who makes it very clear all written scripture isnt worth much, including his own "claimed" religion, makes a case the Qu'ran makes more sense to Jews than Christianity,

So now my religion is claimed while yours is authentic? I always say, just give 'em enough rope.

As for the Qur'an, either your vaunted openmindedness has lapsed, or you are deliberately lying about what I said. Let's try it again:

What I said was that is as valid for you to examine the Qur'an's gloss on the Greek bible (as Christians call it, the "New Testament,") as it is for me to study a Christian gloss of the Hebrew bible. This is a different statement. Please refrain from bearing false witness against me.

I stand accused of asserting that the Qur'an makes more sense to Jews than Christianity. This is another libelous misstatement of what I said.

Historically, the best predictor of whether an apostate Jew converts to Christianity or Islam, is the dominant culture's faith. Hence, Jews who converted in Europe did not tend to convert to Islam (except in Turkey and Ottoman lands,) and those in the Middle East did not tend to convert to Christianity. What does that tell you?

and has such a inner hatred for Christians he'll accuse someone who presents a Case for Christ as being akin to a Neo-Nazi,a Bigot, an anti-semite just for believing in Jesus and (gasp) talking about.

You mean to say I've expressed hatred? Or are you, in addition to being unerringly in the right about all matters of religion, also telepathic? You do not know my "inner" state of mind, only what you have seen here. I do not think I have expressed hatred of Christianity or Christians, nor do I have
"inner hatred" of Christians.

Nor do I have for them the theological contempt you display for all Jews, and in particular reform Jews, whom you seem to see as usurpers to Christianity (one of the more amusing examples of projection I've ever seen in such a debate).

You even inferred that .....
"Of course, you make your unwanted advances without recourse to force, and so claim that violent proponents of these advances are morally inferior to non-violent ones."
......if I had the chance I would advocate violence??? and do you disagree that those who use violence are morally inferior?

No, 3toB. I am saying that just because you aren't forcing conversions, does not mean you are not disrespectful, only that you do not have violent means at your disposal.

Ive already asked about this buzzword you use constantly-proselytizing , as if it evil or something. Karl Rove has nothing on you.[/i]

Proselytizing is the active attempt at conversion of another, usually used (and certainly in this discussion,) to mean relgious proselytizing.

[quote]Im not in opposition to Jews, I am a Jew, and I practice it the way my Jewish King commanded. How do you practice it? A regular on Friday night are you?
Hatred of - Hatred of my own King, the writers of the Book I follow as the word of God? Of myself?

Maybe that's something you need to answer, rather than me.

look, I understand the discomfort with the topic for a Jewish person. I was the same way for many years. I'll say again its not my intention to diss anyone. But it is also my commission to spread the Gospel, in a respectful way. I did so.

I think you've shown how "respectful" you are of other faiths, particularly Judaism, and most particularly the majority of Jews who are not Orthodox.

God is more important than political correctness. I apologize if im a little thrown off. Its not easy getting sworn at and accused of being a Nazi and/or Anti-Semite. And ive kind of had enough of "turning the other cheek".

You're engaging in bigotry, and it falls under the general header of theological antisemitism, in the form of needing a certain behavior of the Jewish people, which they are unwilling to provide, and impinging on them specifically despite their rebuffs of your attempts; scratch the surface, and you become more and more disrespectful of Judaism and Jews.

In the end, Im not the one who best makes the case for Jesus Christ. Jesus himself does.... etc.

Your beliefs are your business, not mine, as long as you stay out of my hair. That is my point.

From your reaction here, though, I think you may believe your proselytizing to be justified by your freedoms of religion or speech; I merely made you aware that it is protected by those freedoms, but not in any way validated or justified. It is still possible for a behavior which is legal and condoned within one's own religion, to be offensive and insulting to those outside your religion. In the case of proselytizing, people outside your religion are exactly the people you are engaging in the behavior toward.


PFnV

[3 to be 4]

It seems strange that you can "never follow" the arguments that make matters clear intellectually, and take offense if others "speak from the heart" on a subject. In other words, there is always one or another excuse not to examine your own beliefs, rather than trumpet how very much you believe them.



The reason why I have no desire to examine Hebrew scripture as if it were written as a "lead-up" to Christianity, is that I believe in Hebrew scripture, just as you believe in the Christian bible. While you do not like how I believe in the Jewish scriptures, I do not read them as a lead-up to Christianity. So, this interpretation of Hebrew scripture is as invalid to me, as the Qur'an's interpretation of the Jesus narrative is to you.

Now I know this part is tough for you: I also believe that Orthodoxy is not the only path within Judaism, as do the majority of Jews.

Let me talk regular some more to ya. It's grotesque for you to presume to tell me what an "authentic" Jew is, particularly since you were evidently unable to retain your own connection with Judaism, choosing instead the dominant culture's religion.

You are a Jewish apostate to Christianity. It is what it is. I have no problem even with you calling yourself Jewish, especially since the Jewish tradition supports the claim, that your Jewish birth entitles you to say as much ("once a Jew always a Jew.")

I do, however, have a problem with an apostate convert to Christianity telling me how I'm not Jewish enough.



On many occasions, both Christians and Muslims have vowed to wipe out all Jews. Suffice it to say, Muslims go so far as to fantasize about acts that Christian Europe actually committed. Oh by the way, moderate Muslims say extremist Muslims "aren't real Muslims" too. So don't even try that one.



Again, I need to cut characters. Your understanding of the history is incomplete, or you are just insensitive to the import of that history. It's not so much an "argument," as an excuse I made for you to help explain your offensive behavior as naivete