The 2013 Prospect Thread

[manxman2601]

Lots of declarations today:

Jarvis Jones
Tharold Simon
Eric Reid
Spencer Ware
Travis Frederick (a Mayo favourite who I haven't watched yet)

[Get it shawtaay]

Originally Posted by mayoclinic

I've sort of seen it that way. I also wonder whether those kind of playmakers - like Bruce Irvin last year - have more value to a team with most of its pieces already in place looking to add a versatile, athletic guy who can create mismatches, than to a team needing a core building block.

The Pats have most of the foundation pieces in place, assuming Talib stays. Adding a "wild card" like Ogletree or Jordan who can create mismatches wouldn't be a bad thing.

The thing is, Irvin is only a mismatch insofar as when there's a slow-footed OT there for him to beat. Jordan actually has multi-positional value, and IMO that is what makes him a "joker" type player. I prefer this comparison. A player who could both cover, rush the QB, and play off the line.


Having said that, I'm with you in terms of hesitation when it comes to drafting him in the 1st round. I don't see impact potential if his pass rushing doesn't come along, because he's not very stout, and his positional value relative to a DT or a stud piece on the OL is questionable. The other question would be how to use him and Hightower effectively together.

[Off The Grid]

Originally Posted by mackenzie45220

I try so hard to be humble

Oh my God.

Originally Posted by mackenzie45220

I'm as good as anyone on the internet.

Well, that lasted 36 minutes!!

Your efforts are appreciated, and you add something to the Conversation, Mac, but believe me: You aren't anywhere near as good as you think!!

[Off The Grid]

Originally Posted by Get it shawtaay

The thing is, Irvin is only a mismatch insofar as when there's a slow-footed OT there for him to beat. Jordan actually has multi-positional value, and IMO that is what makes him a "joker" type player. I prefer this comparison. A who could both cover, rush the QB, and play off the line.


Having said that, I'm with you in terms of hesitation when it comes to drafting him in the 1st round. I don't see impact potential and his positional value relative to a DT or a stud piece on the OL. The other question would be how to use him and Hightower effectively together.

I don't know if Jordan has a bigger fan ~ or an older one ~ than Brother Mayo...although I'm close ~ in terms of Enthusiasm, not Tenure.

And it is precisely his MultiDimensional possibilities that appealed to'm so intensely, as I'm sure he's discussed, hereabouts. Just for the Record.

I still have more Research to do on'm ~ I basically started my Draft Research 4 days ago ~ I've been busy!! ~ but at this relatively early stage I gotta say that the guy's possibilities as breathtaking...and unique.

[mackenzie45220]

Originally Posted by Off The Grid

Oh my God.



Well, that lasted 36 minutes!!

Your efforts are appreciated, and you add something to the Conversation, Mac, but believe me: You aren't anywhere near as good as you think!!

With regard to injuries, I try to be humble. I'm arrogant everywhere else.

[mackenzie45220]

Just wrote about Quessenberry. Enjoy
http://nflmocks.com/2013/01/04/david...outing-report/

[ATippett56]

Originally Posted by mayoclinic

Nice write up on Kent St. OL Brian Winters:

Kent State left tackle Winters set to begin pursuit of NFL career following GoDaddy.Com Bowl - The Record Courier

Bill Belichick drafts team captains.

I'm sold!

[mayoclinic]

Jordan Reed coming out:

Jordan Reed leaving Florida early for NFL

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

Originally Posted by mayoclinic

I agree, I wouldn't use him as a full time line person. He doesn't have the strength or edge setting ability, and bulking him up to 275# or so would take time and would probably impair his fluidity. His best asset is his movement in space, and he's probably best as a 4-3 SLB. NE Patriots' Draft compared him to Mathias Kiwanuka, and that's probably not a bad starting point, though Jordan is much more fluid. I'd use him in space and move him around, drop him back. Put him on the line on occasion, but only situationally.

My problem with Jordan is that I've always loved his skill set, but I'm not sure that I would use a 1st round pick on him. Top 50, certainly. But I tend to want a more "complete" player in the 1st Then again, Seattle used a top 15 pick on Bruce Irvin, so it all depends on how a team sees value. There's no doubt that his skill set can create mismatches, and that may be enough value.

I've been thinking about WLB and using him like Barr would have been used. Lots of blitzing, dropping into coverage, and man coverage on TEs. You'd have to platoon him with Spikes and move Mayo back and fourth.

Even back in my height of Dion Jordan fandom I never though he could be a DE as a rookie.

Originally Posted by manxman2601

I quoted these two together because I think they're similar in nature. for the same reason you're not keen on taking Jordan in the first, I'm sort of there on Ogletree too. The reason why I have Minter ranked ahead of Ogletree is that Minter is a MLB, wither in a 3-4 or 4-3. He can play every down and is the main guy in the LB corps. Ogletree probably doesn't have the strength to play MLB in the NFL and will get lost playing in the box. He's a WLB in a 4-3 at the NFL level. I think he's a player you can get creative with and use him on most downs but you don't want him as a key component at stopping the run. He's a playmaker and his athleticism is outstanding but not great value as a first round pick for the Pats.

So whilst Jordan and Ogletree are very different prospects, they are also very similar in their respective values to the Pats.

I agree with your conclusion "He's a playmaker and his athleticism is outstanding but not great value as a first round pick for the Pats" but not how you came to it. I don't really care that he is a Will LB only. I think that will hurt his draft stock, but not necessarily his value. The reason he isn't a great value is because we already have three very good linebackers (yes, I know they can't cover.) One of them would have to sit in the base defense, two in the nickel, and three in the dime.

I can't remember if Mayoclinic said it, but I know he's be thinking it. If you have a LDE that can move inside, then you can move Hightower down to end and keep the other linebackers on the field thus increasing their value. That would make a high pick on a LB feasible.

Originally Posted by mayoclinic

I've sort of seen it that way. I also wonder whether those kind of playmakers - like Bruce Irvin last year - have more value to a team with most of its pieces already in place looking to add a versatile, athletic guy who can create mismatches, than to a team needing a core building block.

The Pats have most of the foundation pieces in place, assuming Talib stays. Adding a "wild card" like Ogletree or Jordan who can create mismatches wouldn't be a bad thing.

They do IMO. You wouldn't build a house starting at the top would you?

Originally Posted by mackenzie45220

I haven't finished the Stanford game, but I didn't see him play it in the first quarter.
Actually, come to think of it, I'm not 100% sure I saw Stanford come out in a 3 receiver set in the first quarter. That may have something to do with it.

I wondered that too. That screen cap I gave you is the first snap he had at CB (that the youtube video caught) and it was in the 3rd quarter.

Originally Posted by mackenzie45220

I'm just like you when I have to write a scouting report on a guy with an injury history. I watch 300 games a year, but that doesn't make me a doctor. I try so hard to be humble

I'm lucky enough to have a friend that is an orthopedic surgeon. If I didn't I'd be doing all the research I could to develop some form of expertise on injuries. I told him Lattimore is ranked as a third rounder. He told me that it was "nonsensical."

Originally Posted by mackenzie45220

I read about 10 coaching books every offseason. I don't know as much as Belichick, but I'm as good as anyone on the internet. It's tough to get a feel for certain zone coverage schemes when the camera only shows one side of the field (the side the ball went to), but I have a fairly good understanding of what's going on

Like right now for example. I'm watching NC State and Vandy and the idiot cameraman keeps zooming in on the QB at the snap. Hey idiot, you're doing it wrong! This is useless when I'm trying to scout Jordan Matthews and Davis Amerson.

[mayoclinic]

Originally Posted by Merril Hoge's Tie Knot

I've been thinking about WLB and using him like Barr would have been used. Lots of blitzing, dropping into coverage, and man coverage on TEs. You'd have to platoon him with Spikes and move Mayo back and fourth.

Even back in my height of Dion Jordan fandom I never though he could be a DE as a rookie.

Exactly. I've always seen Jordan, Barr and Ogletree has having some overlap, albeit a number of differences. Jordan started as a WR, then a TE before converting to DE/OLB. Barr was a RB/H-Back. Barr doesn't have Jordan's absurd length, but at 6'4" he's still fairly tall. I've never referred to Jordan as a "DE"; always considered him a hybrid, and a space player more than a line player. His value is his ability to be moved around in space and create mismatches.

Originally Posted by Merril Hoge's Tie Knot

I agree with your conclusion "He's a playmaker and his athleticism is outstanding but not great value as a first round pick for the Pats" but not how you came to it. I don't really care that he is a Will LB only. I think that will hurt his draft stock, but not necessarily his value. The reason he isn't a great value is because we already have three very good linebackers (yes, I know they can't cover.) One of them would have to sit in the base defense, two in the nickel, and three in the dime.

I can't remember if Mayoclinic said it, but I know he's be thinking it. If you have a LDE that can move inside, then you can move Hightower down to end and keep the other linebackers on the field thus increasing their value. That would make a high pick on a LB feasible.

That was part of the proposal I called "Diont'a HighJordan". Use Jordan and Hightower (or Barr and Hightower, or Ogletree and Hightower) with Hightower playing LDE or standing up as a 4th LB, or as a 3rd LB with Jordan/Barr/Ogletree playing more of a coverage role, or blitzing, or moving up on the line. Either way you get an additional playmaker, with coverage ability that we currently lack. Getting everyone on the field would be a bit tricky, and one of the reasons I might hesitate to use a 1st round pick, but in the 2nd round I'd jump at the value, without question. In the 1st it still might be worth it, depending on whether BB felt he could make it work and who else was available.

Originally Posted by Merril Hoge's Tie Knot

They do IMO. You wouldn't build a house starting at the top would you?

Again, I'm intrigued about adding a Jordan/Barr/Ogletree kind of playmaking talent in addition to our current mix. We've got impact players on the line in Wilfork and Jones, and Jones has the ability to stand up up on a limited basis. Mayo, Hightower and Spikes are all impact players. BB really hasn't tapped into Hightower's versatility so far this season, but that's part of his real value - his ability to move around, inside and out, on the DL as well as at LB. If you add a big, athletic LDE with the ability to move inside like Hunt, Kruger or Gholston, plus a hybrid space guy like Jordan or Ogletree, then you really have a lot of playmaking ability in your front 7, and the ability to move people around without changing personnel and create havoc. And if the back end can hold together the way it was showing signs of doing when Talib/Dennard were healthy, then the coaching staff can start to get creative with that kind of talent.

Originally Posted by Merril Hoge's Tie Knot

I wondered that too. That screen cap I gave you is the first snap he had at CB (that the youtube video caught) and it was in the 3rd quarter.

I havne't watched the video of the Oregon/Stanford game in detail. However, aside from injury concerns, Stanford's TEs create significant coverage issues that create problems for opposing defenses and their pass rushers. UCLA pretty much used Anthony Barr exclusively as a coverage LB shadowing the TEs when they played Stanford rather than as a pass rusher. I don't know how Oregon used Jordan in their game. My interest in him is not so much as a pure pass rusher, but as a hybrid space player, anyway, so sack totals don't really interest me.

Originally Posted by Merril Hoge's Tie Knot

I'm lucky enough to have a friend that is an orthopedic surgeon. If I didn't I'd be doing all the research I could to develop some form of expertise on injuries. I told him Lattimore is ranked as a third rounder. He told me that it was "nonsensical."

As an anesthesiologist specializing in trauma care with 20 years of experience, it amuses me to listen to some of the medical discussions that go on. Teams can spend a pick on anyone they want, and it's hard to make firm statements without access to MRI and CT scans, but Lattimore has a long, long road to haul to recover from his injuries from what I can tell and from my discussions with the orthopedic surgeons with whom I work. I wouldn't mind risking an extra 7th on him or signing him as a UDFA on the gamble that he can work his way back for 2014 or beyond, but a 3rd? Whoever wants to do that is welcome to him.