Minimum Wage Increase - Page 3 - New England Patriots Forums

PatriotsReign · 12-29-2012, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrylS

Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one..

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/23/ed...cess.html?_r=0

Like I said...

I don't believe any opinion is wrong...that's what makes our country what it is.

PatsFanInVa · 12-29-2012, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

I see this as two separate entities. Cosco is smart by wanting a better employee and will have to pay to achieve that asset. As a consumer, I would probably end up purchasing at Cosco over Walmart due to all the variables that the more productive worker is providing Cosco (I am assuming that Cosco is training the higher priced employee as well as that employee being more motivated as a result of pay).

That does not take away from my contention, that minimum wage increases unemployment, works against the population segment that it is supposed to help, and increases consumer products. Actually, Cosco is using the free enterprise system of giving a higher wage to reap those rewards whether there is a minimum wage or not.

Let's leave aside Cosco and Walmart then, because it looks like the examples here haven't dented the macro idea that if there is no growth, then you simply divide a single number -- the amount people earn in wages across the society -- by another amount -- the amount per hour people get paid. Clearly, full employment would mean everybody getting paid less.

A couple of problems here:

First of all, were that logic true, we should have been making out like gangbusters the last 30 years in terms of full employment, since we've made sure that real income has been stagnant. Secondly, employment should presently be skyrocketing, since the post-recession shakeup has workers earning less on average.

Oddly enough, that's not what happens or what has been happening. That's because we're in a demand trough, still -- and the trough is threatening to come back with a vengeance. Christmas sales were the worst since 09 this year. Now, that goes to the fiscal cliff and the general climate of "Yeah they're looking at f***ing us all again... appalachian dowel toys this year!"

Just using that example...

Okay, so the big macro economy eats that info, and what happens? You have to make up what you didn't make up with the traditional holiday surge. In retail, you're looking for ways to shrink your workforce. In manufacturing, it's more "doing more with less," cutting as many corners as possible, and certainly not hiring new people. Where did that effect come from? People earning too much? No! People feeling broke (which is almost as bad as people being broke.)

So let's say we had a functioning republican party caucus, and there was no fiscal cliff. Let's say our politicians were all good and wise and motivated toward public service not grandstanding. In a word, let's say the political machinery is 100% efficient in all other respects.

What happens this Christmas, all else being equal? "Normal" buying, reflecting the '10 and '11 levels, with a little bump for the further progress we've made out of the recession. A normal buying season. All the retail and manufacturing and related jobs have more money to fund them, all in all.

What happens this Christmas,if our pols are good and wise, with the single exception that working people earned 5% less?

Something like what did happen, because you've suppressed demand.

That's a simplified (and minimized) version of what happens when you suppress the minimum wage.

Now, to argue on your side: we did have upward adjustments in 07, 08, and 09. The history of minimum wage before that was very flat for a very long time, once at a level between 3 and 4 dollars, and then at a level between 5 and 6 dollars (we're now at 7.25, I think.) That's how minimum wage goes these days - you have long periods of badly eroded earnings, countered by fits and starts of increases.

You're probably looking at about the point where minimum wage pays like when I was a teenager, adjusted for inflation. It certainly hasn't gone up in real terms.

You can't "look at it as two different entities." You can't confine labor costs to a static analysis where there's no effect to demand, only to costs, holding everything else constant.

Now - if you think we'll never have growth again, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You have this constant problem of how to make poor and middle class people poorer, so "we" can "compete." Then "they" (really, "we," ultimately, through ripple effects,) can just put up with declining standards of living forever, and we can point to other indicators (say, debt, or the earnings of U.S. companies,) and say "good thing we've cut those labor costs."

The thing is to find balance, not one "principle" that will cure all your ills. The goal that gets lost here is that people live worthwhile lives (not one or another abstract vision.)

The way to get there at the moment isn't cutting labor costs. It's having money to spend as a result of having a job. Otherwise, welcome to Thailand, right?

PFnV

Ilikehappyppl · 12-29-2012, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

You think people who make subs at Subway or burgers at McDonald's should be paid enough to afford "healthcare, food, housing, insurance, school supplies, etc,etc"?

What kind of fantasy world do you live in?

People need SKILLS to get jobs good enough to actually earn a living. No one is guaranteed anything in this country regarding how we earn our living. If one is motivated enough to do whatever they need to do to be successful, then they'll reap the rewards.

Little opportunity awaits all who have little motivation.

Quote:

You think people who make subs at Subway or burgers at McDonald's should be paid enough to afford "healthcare, food, housing, insurance, school supplies, etc,etc"?

Yes I do! You don't? Are you really this mean and angry? If you work anywhere @35-40 hours a week, you should make enough to cover your food,rent,healthcare and a few odds and ends....if you don't think that's right your just an old angry and bitter person.

Quote:

What kind of fantasy world do you live in?

I live in the world, that we treat each other with respect and dignity, that we care more about our fellow men then we do a new house or new car or a tall buildings or more money. That it is more important that we help each other rather then trying to claw our way to the top.

Quote:

People need SKILLS to get jobs good enough to actually earn a living.

Not everyone is the same, are you really this out to lunch? I know tons of good hardworking people, they just don't have the mental aptitude to go to college or to learn a trade, so those people are just **** out of luck? They don't deserve to live a semi-decent life? And then there are people that can't afford it or don't have the means.

You know, having a little compassion goes a long ways...Sorry we all can't be like you PR...

Quote:

Little opportunity awaits all who have little motivation

I never said you should be paid like a King if you don't want to put in the work and effort, what I am saying is that not everyone has the means or the aptitude to achieve those same things and even though they don't that shouldn't mean that should have to struggle their whole lives to live a decent life.

My Mom and an amazing person, she is sweet, she is a hard worker and she would do anything for anyone, even a stranger. The one thing she has always lacked was the smarts...She tried to go to college but she just couldn't do it....she like alot of others has a learning disability and it made it too hard to go to college and take care of kids....She worked at min wage for most my life and we went through a ton of stuff together, we struggled every month and barely made it most of the time, the other times we were homeless staying in a car or shelters. Even though she was a great worker, always showed up on time and left late, she never really went anywhere, she was always going to be a peon....I don't think people like her and others should have to live a life, where they barely make it just because they lack skills or lack education. I think and I know in my heart that that's just wrong....That everyone no matter the job should be paid well enough to live, should be paid well enough to eat, should be paid well enough to get healthcare.

Pride cometh before the fall PR, remember that....

scout · 12-29-2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsFanInVa

Let's leave aside Cosco and Walmart then, because it looks like the examples here haven't dented the macro idea that if there is no growth, then you simply divide a single number -- the amount people earn in wages across the society -- by another amount -- the amount per hour people get paid. Clearly, full employment would mean everybody getting paid less.

A couple of problems here:

First of all, were that logic true, we should have been making out like gangbusters the last 30 years in terms of full employment, since we've made sure that real income has been stagnant. Secondly, employment should presently be skyrocketing, since the post-recession shakeup has workers earning less on average.

Oddly enough, that's not what happens or what has been happening. That's because we're in a demand trough, still -- and the trough is threatening to come back with a vengeance. Christmas sales were the worst since 09 this year. Now, that goes to the fiscal cliff and the general climate of "Yeah they're looking at f***ing us all again... appalachian dowel toys this year!"

Just using that example...

Okay, so the big macro economy eats that info, and what happens? You have to make up what you didn't make up with the traditional holiday surge. In retail, you're looking for ways to shrink your workforce. In manufacturing, it's more "doing more with less," cutting as many corners as possible, and certainly not hiring new people. Where did that effect come from? People earning too much? No! People feeling broke (which is almost as bad as people being broke.)

So let's say we had a functioning republican party caucus, and there was no fiscal cliff. Let's say our politicians were all good and wise and motivated toward public service not grandstanding. In a word, let's say the political machinery is 100% efficient in all other respects.

What happens this Christmas, all else being equal? "Normal" buying, reflecting the '10 and '11 levels, with a little bump for the further progress we've made out of the recession. A normal buying season. All the retail and manufacturing and related jobs have more money to fund them, all in all.

What happens this Christmas,if our pols are good and wise, with the single exception that working people earned 5% less?

Something like what did happen, because you've suppressed demand.

That's a simplified (and minimized) version of what happens when you suppress the minimum wage.

Now, to argue on your side: we did have upward adjustments in 07, 08, and 09. The history of minimum wage before that was very flat for a very long time, once at a level between 3 and 4 dollars, and then at a level between 5 and 6 dollars (we're now at 7.25, I think.) That's how minimum wage goes these days - you have long periods of badly eroded earnings, countered by fits and starts of increases.

You're probably looking at about the point where minimum wage pays like when I was a teenager, adjusted for inflation. It certainly hasn't gone up in real terms.

You can't "look at it as two different entities." You can't confine labor costs to a static analysis where there's no effect to demand, only to costs, holding everything else constant.

Now - if you think we'll never have growth again, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You have this constant problem of how to make poor and middle class people poorer, so "we" can "compete." Then "they" (really, "we," ultimately, through ripple effects,) can just put up with declining standards of living forever, and we can point to other indicators (say, debt, or the earnings of U.S. companies,) and say "good thing we've cut those labor costs."

The thing is to find balance, not one "principle" that will cure all your ills. The goal that gets lost here is that people live worthwhile lives (not one or another abstract vision.)

The way to get there at the moment isn't cutting labor costs. It's having money to spend as a result of having a job. Otherwise, welcome to Thailand, right?

PFnV

All good points. There is no getting around the theory of supply and demand. What I have come to believe is in a free market economy, which the government does not regulate markets (no tarriffs, rent controls, minimum wages, price ceilings, floors, etc) as the best approach.
In regards to minimum wage, the action-reaction of movement of wage-employment is cut in stone. No legal example will negate the equilibrium point crossing at a point as a result of increase/decrease in supply and demand. An increase in wages causes a decrease in demand. We can argue the effects of a minimum wage and whether that helps or hurts a segment of the population, but there cannot be an argument on the dynamics of the theory.

PatriotsReign · 12-29-2012, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilikehappyppl

Yes I do! You don't? Are you really this mean and angry? If you work anywhere @35-40 hours a week, you should make enough to cover your food,rent,healthcare and a few odds and ends....if you don't think that's right your just an old angry and bitter person.

I live in the world, that we treat each other with respect and dignity, that we care more about our fellow men then we do a new house or new car or a tall buildings or more money. That it is more important that we help each other rather then trying to claw our way to the top.

Not everyone is the same, are you really this out to lunch? I know tons of good hardworking people, they just don't have the mental aptitude to go to college or to learn a trade, so those people are just **** out of luck? They don't deserve to live a semi-decent life? And then there are people that can't afford it or don't have the means.

You know, having a little compassion goes a long ways...Sorry we all can't be like you PR...

I never said you should be paid like a King if you don't want to put in the work and effort, what I am saying is that not everyone has the means or the aptitude to achieve those same things and even though they don't that shouldn't mean that should have to struggle their whole lives to live a decent life.

My Mom and an amazing person, she is sweet, she is a hard worker and she would do anything for anyone, even a stranger. The one thing she has always lacked was the smarts...She tried to go to college but she just couldn't do it....she like alot of others has a learning disability and it made it too hard to go to college and take care of kids....She worked at min wage for most my life and we went through a ton of stuff together, we struggled every month and barely made it most of the time, the other times we were homeless staying in a car or shelters. Even though she was a great worker, always showed up on time and left late, she never really went anywhere, she was always going to be a peon....I don't think people like her and others should have to live a life, where they barely make it just because they lack skills or lack education. I think and I know in my heart that that's just wrong....That everyone no matter the job should be paid well enough to live, should be paid well enough to eat, should be paid well enough to get healthcare.

Pride cometh before the fall PR, remember that....

Stop stereo-typing people based upon their age. That's against board rules.

All your comments are so emotional it's difficult to carry on a conversation with you.

If companies paid all employees a "living wage" as you have described, all of us would experience monumental inflation.

If all companies were required to pay a minimum annual salary, they would have to raise their prices on their products because all companies must make a profit.

The result of the above wage-price spiral would drive the minimum "living wage" even higher for all of us.

Secondly, if a person flipping burgers suddenly is paid $50k a year, then people doing more important work will need to be paid more. In other words, if I'm a carpenter working my tail off and earning $50k and I find out the lowly burger-flipper is making the same, then I know I deserve to make more than the burger-flipper and my boss will have to give me a large raise. Otherwise, I may as well work as a burger-flipper and save my back....right?

You have to consider consequences when stating your opinion. You can't just say "I believe we should "X"" without understanding what would result from your position.

Although you're entitled to your opinion, your opinion could never be implemented. You need a more thorough and practical approach.

Maybe you could start with the fact no American is "entitled" to a job. One has to go out and find one and then prove he/she is worth the money they're being paid.

Ilikehappyppl · 12-29-2012, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

All good points. There is no getting around the theory of supply and demand. What I have come to believe is in a free market economy, which the government does not regulate markets (no tarriffs, rent controls, minimum wages, price ceilings, floors, etc) as the best approach.
In regards to minimum wage, the action-reaction of movement of wage-employment is cut in stone. No legal example will negate the equilibrium point crossing at a point as a result of increase/decrease in supply and demand. An increase in wages causes a decrease in demand. We can argue the effects of a minimum wage and whether that helps or hurts a segment of the population, but there cannot be an argument on the dynamics of the theory.

Scout,

Quote:

which the government does not regulate markets (no tarriffs, rent controls, minimum wages, price ceilings, floors, etc) as the best approach.

.

We already did this, not trying to be a dick but go read a history book man....it was like this from the beginning of time to about 1900's....If we went back to this model, people would be making $5 a day and couldn't even feed their familes or pay rent or afford anything for that matter.

Free market is a joke, its a pipe dream!!! You need to have rules in a game, what if I was to ask you to play monopoly but instead of having rules we just played and anything goes, how do you think that would work out?

I like most of your posts Scout but your way off the mark here...

Ilikehappyppl · 12-29-2012, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

All your comments are so emotional it's difficult to carry on a conversation with you.

If companies paid all employees a "living wage" as you have described, all of us would experience monumental inflation.

If all companies were required to pay a minimum annual salary, they would have to raise their prices on their products because all companies must make a profit.

The result of the above wage-price spiral would drive the minimum "living wage" even higher for all of us.

Secondly, if a person flipping burgers suddenly is paid $50k a year, then people doing more important work will need to be paid more. In other words, if I'm a carpenter working my tail off and earning $50k and I find out the lowly burger-flipper is making the same, then I know I deserve to make more than the burger-flipper and my boss will have to give me a large raise. Otherwise, I may as well work as a burger-flipper and save my back....right?

You have to consider consequences when stating your opinion. You can't just say "I believe we should "X"" without understanding what would result from your position.

Although you're entitled to your opinion, your opinion could never be implemented. You need a more thorough and practical approach.

Maybe you could start with the fact no American is "entitled" to a job. One has to go out and find one and then prove he/she is worth the money they're being paid.

Quote:

All your comments are so emotional it's difficult to carry on a conversation with you.

That's because they comes from my heart, not my ass like other people.

Quote:

If companies paid all employees a "living wage" as you have described, all of us would experience monumental inflation.

This the problem I have with this theory, if you don't make the pie any bigger, it stays the same but more people have a slice of the pie, how does that cause monumental inflation? I could see your point if we made the pie bigger but if it stays the same but more people have a slice I don't see how that works...

Quote:

If all companies were required to pay a minimum annual salary, they would have to raise their prices on their products because all companies must make a profit.

Anything over .1 penny over your overhead cost is a profit, I don't think paying people a fair wage would cause companies to raise their prices, since then are already making a profit, they would just make a little less. Instead of 5 million in profit you make 3 million, its the end of the world!!!!!!

Quote:

The result of the above wage-price spiral would drive the minimum "living wage" even higher for all of us.

No, it wouldn't! Your wrong!

Quote:

Secondly, if a person flipping burgers suddenly is paid $50k a year, then people doing more important work will need to be paid more.

Who said anything about making 50k a year working at a burger joint? I SAID MAKE A LIVABLE WAGE! God damn, way to exaggerate PR...

Quote:

You have to consider consequences when stating your opinion. You can't just say "I believe we should "X"" without understanding what would result from your position.

Right back at you buddy!

Quote:

Although you're entitled to your opinion, your opinion could never be implemented. You need a more thorough and practical approach.

Likewise PR, likewise.....you need to take some of your own advice!

Quote:

Maybe you could start with the fact no American is "entitled" to a job.

I agree, you aren't "entitled" to a job but you should be "entitled" to a livable wage....

Quote:

One has to go out and find one and then prove he/she is worth the money they're being paid.

No, you hire someone, you need to pay them a livable wage, case closed!

PatriotsReign · 12-29-2012, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilikehappyppl

That's because they comes from my heart, not my ass like other people.

Really????

Ilikehappyppl · 12-29-2012, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

Really????

Yes really, I'm not a bitter person PR.....I'm sorry that you are....

***IcyPatriot*** · 12-29-2012, 12:20 PM

If Obama had kept his campaign promise of 2008 ... which he also made for 2012. If he and his administration had helped make it more profitable for companies to manufacture and run their businesses in the USA.

If he had done the above or even made an effort to do the above then more companies would return here and others would outsource less. when that happens demand for workers increase which then leads to higher wages as the supply of workers goes down and demand goes up. Result of that is higher wages ... even at the low end of the scale - call it below $10 hour employees.

This is a problem in this country ... too much legislation and executive orders to do what the market could do on it's own. Our government needs to realize that although demand for USA goods is up ... those goods are not always made here or serviced here. A building of 10 employees could be classified as american goods even though they have 500 more employees elsewhere in the world that could be working here.

Wages would increase and the tax base would increase ... all by helping companies ... even eliminating corporate taxes which I have said before ... all by helping level the playing field for businesses. Companies that deal with far less regulation and encumbering logistics elsewhere in the world.