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You're right. We need smaller government, so there should be no laws to break and no prisons to hold criminals.
That's your point I take it; why should government stick its big nose into every little problem?
Criminal behavior is one place government is already involved in. We can demand that the involvement be truncated and just roll the dice. Or we can demand that government involvement be as heavy and disproportionate as possible, because we know option 1 -- just roll the dice -- doesn't work.
Or, we can demand that government involvement be shaped to keep the remainder of society safest for the lowest all-in economic expenditure.
That's what you're doing when you demand that "society" take an interest in Joe... never mind the fact that it is better to have a society of hope and rehabilitation than a society of despair and incarceration.
PFnV
Ok, you can take my comments to the absolute extreme and thereby avoid addressing my points directly because you're unable to...I understand, I really do.
Do you agree that there are limits to what society/taxpayers can do?
We are discussing reality here...not some fantasy society that does whatever it feels is right no matter what the cost...mainly because cost ALWAYS matters.
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Do you agree that there are limits to what society/taxpayers can do?
We are discussing reality here...not some fantasy society that does whatever it feels is right no matter what the cost...mainly because cost ALWAYS matters.
Ok...accepting your theory - what do you propose we do with "these" people? If we're not going to house them, and we're not going to feed them, and we're not going to intervene with their children through the school system or a welfare system, what ARE we going to do with them?
Of course there are limits to what government/society can do.
Compare my approach -- looking for the smarter ways to direct our resources -- with yours -- usually saying "we should NEVER" blah blah blah.
Now you think we should be nuanced and figure out where and when we can have a positive effect, acting as a society, on a problem that will have repercussions for a society?
I take it that the limits of what we can do is the point at which our returns don't justify our collective action?
Cool beans. That makes a much smaller region of disagreement. It also necessitates that we listen to various proposed solutions before dismissing them as axiomatically wrong before we hear them.
Finally, it means somebody should come up with ideas for solutions. If you don't have them, it's no longer rational, by your latest approach, to pooh-pooh the search for solutions.
After all, we can't go around saying IT'S WRONG for government to ever do anything to help. All we can do is look at specific proposals as efficient or inefficient.
Unless of course you just lurched to this "limits" argument as the latest disguise for "we should never act in any way"
I'm going to keep spelling that over and over in my head today.
Speaking of whales, there's a dead whale on Malibu Beach and the smell is driving Barbara Striesand nuts, I think Obama should do something about this.
As I expected, conservatives really don't have answers to these kinds of problems. They sort of live in lala land where one does not present solutions, but simply complains about those who present solutions. I think Americans are starting to realize that conservatives truly lack solutions to social problems. The fact remains that if we don't do something for Joe, he's going to become a problem -- in the worst case harming someone and in the best case living off our tax dollars as he goes through the legal system on his way to prison.
Joe is a problem. He's already cost society a ton, and just because he's "serious" now, the accountable among are forced at gun point to pay for him further, as well as every other deadbeat out there. At what point do you close the door on subsidies and assistance at the expense of those who account for themselves? To you, there is no end to the handouts paid for by someone else. To some others, those who you like to call names, there's simply a limit. It isn't that people don't want to help, or are against paying for programs that do so. It's that there has to be a limit, and line drawn.
Remember, the more you do for people, the less they do for themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyPatriot
You give him the SSI disability ... IMO he is society disabled and that is obvious. Many people won't like that option but if you want more peace and less crime then it's the price we all have to pay.
Years ago many of these people were institutionalized but we are a much more civilized society now. People who are born with low intelligence have a disability IMO it is not much different than a bad back or an amputated arm. It inhibits employment and you don't just throw these people out in the streets.
That more normal and capable people are receiving government benefits is where the crime is ... they are stealing the $$$ that should be going to the Joe's out there who need it.
SSI Disability 4lyfe!
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyPatriot
On thing I neglected to add is we need to have a greater effort in education in this country. Education and after school programs are the solution to many problems affecting this country today. You can either spend more on education or more on social welfare later ... the education spending is more fruitful for society. Even people like Joe can be identified earlier and trained in a trade rather than not being trained for anything.
We spend over half a Trillion (with a capital T) dollars on k-12 education in this country. Who knows how many more billions we spend on the other assorted "educational" programs the government runs or subsidizes. The effort has to come from people. Spending more money is all everyone ever says when it comes to solving problems. Hasn't anyone noticed how much we actually spend as a nation, and what the results of that spending has been? We're broke, and worse off in every capacity imaginable. If you keep rewarding, coddling, and subsidizing bad behavior, you'll only get more of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsWSB47
You haven't weighed in on a solution yet, what's yours?
I agree with the all serious remedies in this thread so far. I'm in the "teach a man to fish crowd"...don't know if that's conservative or liberal. I asked earlier what his hypothetical disability was so I could answer better. I was already thinking about how he could hang around the prison system working as a civilian when Mr.P weighed in on it. I also like Icy and Mrs.P's preventative education angle. I also have to give RI Patriots fan props for remembering the victims....the ones who are forgotten way too often in these discussions.
Patters wakes up in the morning and sees the world as Liberal vs Conservative. Republican vs Democrat. He's consumed by partisanship, and by assigning everything that he viewed as bad to one "side", and all that he percieves as "good" to the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RI Patriots fan
We should do nothing as a society but as individuals we should donate our time and money to Joe's victims.
The government cannot fix these problems. In many cases they only make them worse. Social issues like these are best dealt with at the local level. That means both local government, and local community. Mailing someone a check and giving them a free apartment, while paying a newly created agency and the union it hires with wasted taxpayer dollars, only serves to make these types of problems worse.
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
Joe is a problem. He's already cost society a ton, and just because he's "serious" now, the accountable among are forced at gun point to pay for him further, as well as every other deadbeat out there. At what point do you close the door on subsidies and assistance at the expense of those who account for themselves? To you, there is no end to the handouts paid for by someone else. To some others, those who you like to call names, there's simply a limit. It isn't that people don't want to help, or are against paying for programs that do so. It's that there has to be a limit, and line drawn.
Remember, the more you do for people, the less they do for themselves.
SSI Disability 4lyfe!
We spend over half a Trillion (with a capital T) dollars on k-12 education in this country. Who knows how many more billions we spend on the other assorted "educational" programs the government runs or subsidizes. The effort has to come from people. Spending more money is all everyone ever says when it comes to solving problems. Hasn't anyone noticed how much we actually spend as a nation, and what the results of that spending has been? We're broke, and worse off in every capacity imaginable. If you keep rewarding, coddling, and subsidizing bad behavior, you'll only get more of it.
Patters wakes up in the morning and sees the world as Liberal vs Conservative. Republican vs Democrat. He's consumed by partisanship, and by assigning everything that he viewed as bad to one "side", and all that he percieves as "good" to the other.
The government cannot fix these problems. In many cases they only make them worse. Social issues like these are best dealt with at the local level. That means both local government, and local community. Mailing someone a check and giving them a free apartment, while paying a newly created agency and the union it hires with wasted taxpayer dollars, only serves to make these types of problems worse.
As I said, conservatives don't have solutions, merely complain about everyone else's solutions. Thanks for proving my point.
Should Americans look to our government to solve all their problems?
It's much easier than teaching irresponsible parents how to change. Time and time again teachers I talk to ... inner city teachers ... deal with this issue daily and year after year. Mostly on the dad side and it's horrible for these kids.
The government cannot fix these problems. In many cases they only make them worse. Social issues like these are best dealt with at the local level. That means both local government, and local community. Mailing someone a check and giving them a free apartment, while paying a newly created agency and the union it hires with wasted taxpayer dollars, only serves to make these types of problems worse.
I'll ask you the same thing I asked PR....What should we do instead?
20Likes
Re: What should we as a society do?
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