PatriotsReign

And I thank God for all those victories!

I'd like to see the mossad train some of our military elite. I'm a huge fan of Mossad.

PatriotsReign

It appears you have enough of your own bro.....take a break now & then, will ya!

UK_Pat37

Well we accept Israel as a state despite their refusal to declare thir borders...why shouldn't we acknowledge Palestine?

We're still headed for all out war within that region anyway. How on earth we can acknowledge either as a state when neither want to coexist with each other and Israel seem hell bent on expanding their nonexistent borders is beyond me.

There's only be way this mess will be decided and it involves a fight...in part because of the inconsistency of the West's handling of this mess.

I refuse to acknowledge Israel as a state and sill do in my own mind. There's only one reason a country doesn't declare it's borders nd that's because they don intend them to stay where they are.

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PatsFanInVa

The fact that Koestler could come up with that one prior to the advent of crack is a veritable advertisement for the underrated power of methamphetamines.

It's interesting how much interest there is in whether Jews are racially pure enough, among those simultaneously complaining of a state for the Jewish people on the grounds that the idea is racist.

Get it together, guys. For race-baiters on "the other side" racial anti-semitism is a wonderful ploy. For left anti-Israel sympathy, it's problematic and undercuts claims of a progressive angle. It's probably best to oppose Israel without pulling arrows from the anti-semites' quiver.

PFnV

PatsFanInVa

I thought it was pretty clear what Israel does and doesn't claim as within its borders. It's also clear what claims are recognized internationally. For example, Israel's claim to Tel Aviv is not disputed outside the parties which do not recognize Israel at all. Israel's claim to the entirety of Jerusalem is only accepted by Israel (whereas Israel's claim to West Jerusalem is again only disputed by those who do not recognize Israel.) Israel and Syria both claim Shebaa Farms, a situation that's pertained since the 40s. Syria might have ceded its claim to Lebanon. I forget.

There are also areas outside of Israel that Israel occupies or has occupied. The majority of this land area was returned to Egypt (the Sinai.) Israel withdrew from Gaza, I think in 2006. There are no Israeli soldiers permanently stationed there and no Israeli settlements there.

Israel occupies parts of the West Bank while other parts are autonomously administered by the Palestinian Authority. Jordan, Egypt, and Israel have accepted where Israel proper ends and where the occupied territories begin.

In the case of surrounding states, this is seldom problematic. Israel's cross-border activity most recently involved Lebanon, at the time a factional mess, and its invasions could easily be termed hot pursuit under international law. If Lebanon was a "nation-state," it was not controlling rogue bandits. We know it was not such a state, and that the actual power in Lebanon was vested in the various armed factions, not the Lebanese Army, which fell somewhere between the Keystone Cops (on the high end) and the Jets (on the low end) in terms of competence.

However, Israel never claimed nor annexed any part of Lebanon.

So the major part of your complaint seems to be not that Israel doesn't have fixed borders, but that Israel acts outside its fixed borders.

Tell me if I have this wrong. Israel's behavior outside its recognized borders is an obvious source of conflict, but this is not what you claim. What you claim is that Israel has no fixed borders, which is in conflict with what I've seen elsewhere. Do you have a link establishing that claim?

I'm sincere on this subject. So much debate has to do with the de facto problems of occupation, rather than the de jure borders. While there are huge disputes, however, I don't know that I've seen a refusal on the part of Israel to accept its borders -- whether or not that continues to include unilaterally declared annexations.

Again, I'm not stupid enough to favor the latter. I want to know the subject of your real complaint though. If the complaint is "Hey you changed the borders at point A, B, and C" that's one thing. If the complaint is "Hey your official policy is that you don't have any borders," that's another.

I may be somewhat in the dark about it, so enlighten me. I thought Israel's actual borders are the pre-67 lines, with the addition of those areas formally annexed, and that's Israel's present definition of its borders.

If that's the case, the problem is as easily defined as what those borders are with. The borders with Egypt, Gaza, and Jordan aren't problematic. Israel and Syria has a conflict over Shebaa farms. The rest of the border problems are "borders" with... what?

We seem to be back at Palestinian statehood -- something you have to go to the table to determine. If the Palestinian stance is that the borders of Israel are nonexistent because Israel is nonexistent, no dice. However, the PA and Fatah do not take this attitude, whereas Hamas does. If the PA wants to negotiate the status of the West Bank independent of Hamas, fine. If Hamas wants to be subsumed into the PA, fine. But how are you going to say there is "one Palestinian struggle," with a large part of the movement still proclaiming the entirety of mandatory Palestine as its territory (i.e., including the state of Israel)?

So again UK... what is the border with, as regards the occupied territories? If there is a Palestine, that's the Israeli/Palestinian border. But if there is a Palestine, Palestine's responsible to stop acts of war against Israel, and cross-border incursions are the reaction of any state being fired on by a hostile nation.

PFnV

Nikolai

Puzzling, isn't it? Well said.

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We get what we deserve.

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“On a day when they could have had impact players David Terrell or Koren Robinson..they took Georgia defensive tackle Richard Seymour, who had 1 sacks last season in the pass-happy SEC and is too tall to play tackle at 6-6 and too slow to play defensive end. This genius move was followed by trading out of a spot where they could have gotten the last decent receiver in Robert Ferguson and settled for tackle Matt Light, who will not help any time soon.”

Nikolai

PFnV,

There is one little thing to consider about Israel and Syria. Their principle debate is the Golan Heights. Syria has given up its claim to the Shebaa Farms, at least when it is expedient. The Shebaa Farms dispute is transferred to Lebanon to justify Hezbollah's continued struggle with Israel to non-aligned Lebanese entities.

__________________
We get what we deserve.

------------------
“On a day when they could have had impact players David Terrell or Koren Robinson..they took Georgia defensive tackle Richard Seymour, who had 1 sacks last season in the pass-happy SEC and is too tall to play tackle at 6-6 and too slow to play defensive end. This genius move was followed by trading out of a spot where they could have gotten the last decent receiver in Robert Ferguson and settled for tackle Matt Light, who will not help any time soon.”

PatsFanInVa

Thank you Nik... I think I knew that, but not sure if it came through. I keep forgetting that Lebanon, Hezbollah, and Syria can't all be considered to be a single Syrian sphere of influence, since Syria is having trouble invading itself these days.

Real World

The UN.

Hans Blix.mov - YouTube


As for the thread topic, I have no clue whether it's good or bad, wise or stupid. The Palestinian/Israeli problem is one that I don't have an answer for. I don't think we will ever see peace there. Certainly not in my lifetime. Therefore the one conclusion I would say is most likely to come out of this, is war. Egypt, Libya, Syria, Iran, etc. could all opt in on aggression. Not saying that will happen, just that it is a possibility. That entire region is loaded with lunatics. The possibility of a brokered peace with the unreasonable, is what I'd call, slim to none. At some point the Palestinians will have to be given a nation or state. For that to happen, they, as well as their supporting nation in the ME, will need to recognize and respect Israel as well. Anyone see that happening anytime soon? I don't.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897