It's on now... (official Hamas vs. Israel octogon thread)

[OMGWTFJUDD]

Originally Posted by PatsFanInVa

Well, on the bulletin board, I'm not sure what the charge is against Israel, other than "waging defensive war against a lesser-equipped and more aggressive enemy" or something.

On the ground, the defense does not differ much whether we all decide Israel's guilty of existing, or whether we find them not guilty by reason of sanity.

Now -- keeping it narrow -- I am all for an end to the present hostilities. It looks like the brave soldiers of Hamas have now blown up a bus full of commuters, so we probably have to wait for at least one more retaliatory strike. We'll see.

More broadly -- I am all for Israel sitting down with a Palestinian delegation to discuss a two-state solution. However, by its own radical program, Hamas can't play on that field, at least not yet.

There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza. There are no standing Israeli troops in Gaza. Yet Israel is expected to put up with daily rocket barrages.

So theoretically the crime Israel is guilty of is existing.

But really what's worst in the average Gazan's life right now is not that Israel exists "over there" somewhere. It's that Gaza has no economy, and that goods coming in are very heavily screened for anything that even reminds Israel of arms smuggling -- i.e., terrible conditions.

The only way to make conditions better in Gaza is to accept that it's not their right to lob rockets at their neighbors -- witness the comparatively idyllic [sic] West Bank.

So the people are pawns -- whoever said that, is right. Is it in Israel's power to make life much better for Gazans? Yes, but their response is that it's at the cost of their own citizens' security.

But as to the "whatdidido? defense" on a bulletin board, again and again it goes back to this thick-headed assertion that "oh no, we shouldn't historically even have this problem.... those 7 million people shouldn't even be a country with its own right to self defense..." Really, Israel's existence is the problem for this crowd. Hence their constant referral to the 1948 mandate.

So as you can tell I get way too irritated way too often on said subject.

PFnV

And arguments can be made that this is a situation entirely of Israels making.

But, what next.?

You've noted the appalling leadership of Hamas, and I agree, but what kind of leadership would you expect to evolve under these circumstances?

And what of Israel? in this environment are we likely to see another Yitzhak Rabin? At the moment would a govt be swept to power promising peace with Palestinians? or is it much more likely that the next election will be fought on "security issues" ? making it impossible for any progress in finding a solution.

[PatsFanInVa]

Originally Posted by DocHoliday

That charter has long been revised. Likud's charter rejects any Palestinian state

Oh okay, see this is how one learns. I've posted the link to the Hamas charter, so I'd like to see a link to the revised Hamas charter.

I am well aware that Fatah did so; in fact, I was very involved with Israeli/Palestinian peace issues at the time. "And there was great rejoicing." Somewhat premature rejoicing but rejoicing nonetheless.

I remember meeting with a delegation of trade unionists from Ramallah at the time. Very strange shaking their hands, being a good ol'-fashioned hippie who happened to be Jewish, they being sturdy guys who you knew had seen a good deal more. I had a flash of distrust as I am sure they did: my gut told me they were vomiting a little in their own mouths, meeting these "soft zionists" from the U.S. when their real problem was with the Israelis. My distrust was OMG, what if I'm their dupe and they're all going back this very night to laugh about their excellent meeting with the U.S. dupes then building pipe-bombs and the like. I am sure their distrust was OMG what if we're here for nothing and these hippies have absolutely no sway over their AIPAC counterparts. For all I know we both could have been right; from subsequent events, I know that if they had that concern, they definitely were right.

Just a flashback. But these were basically PA guys. The secular ones. I have worried since the Gaza elections that Hamas does not have the flexibility Fatah had, because their charter was steeped in selective passages from the Qur'an. If you think Fatah stood to be ridiculed for selling out, think about Hamas' position.

But evidently those fears were in vain as well. Share with us the good news, brother Doc, and link to the amended charter that does not call for the dismantlement of the state of Israel.

PFnV

[PatsFanInVa]

Originally Posted by OMGWTFJUDD

And arguments can be made that this is a situation entirely of Israels making.

But, what next.?

You've noted the appalling leadership of Hamas, and I agree, but what kind of leadership would you expect to evolve under these circumstances?

And what of Israel? in this environment are we likely to see another Yitzhak Rabin? At the moment would a govt be swept to power promising peace with Palestinians? or is it much more likely that the next election will be fought on "security issues" ? making it impossible for any progress in finding a solution.

This is why I've become pessimistic over the years. We'll see if the present cease-fire even leads to anything even slightly more durable prior to the Israeli elections (if so, it would be their "November surprise.") More talks supposedly to follow, tomorrow.

The Israelis actually baffled me tonight... their talk about the blockade was all "of course, of course, we will have to do more to get medicine and food into Gaza, and of course, of course, the blockade is completely negotiable."

We'll see. Most likely, it will be conditioned on Hamas accepting Israel's right to exist, Hamas will refuse, badda bing badda boom. Like I said, this has the feel very much of "we've seen this movie before."

But I can't help but cast a sideways glance out of my jaundiced eyes hoping that this time it's for real.

And that makes me feel like the title character of "It's the Israeli-Palestinian Issue, Charlie Brown!," running up to kick the football.

PFnV

[Titus Pullo]

LOL. SO sorry I missed this awesomeness...

Originally Posted by Hamar

No problem with the word "killing", but the killing was going on long before we started giving them money, it is going while we give them money, and it will be going on if we stop giving them money.

uh huh... but mine was more a reference to your advocating "cutting all M.E. aid". ... as well as your amusing preference to put U.S. marines home from the front-lines (and maybe blackwater jean-wearin' mercenaries?) right to work on the border to guard us against those horrible Mexicans ... and, you know, "pay them" accordingly. ... or whatever you were insinuating there. hard to say....

if so, what in the world is that about? ... please don't tell me you're one of those hawkish cons who salivates at the prospect of "killing some gangstas" with our expensive hardware along our southern bad lands.

don't be that guy.

Originally Posted by Hamar

I do wonder why you chose the word "murder" in the original post though.

Oh, cool. Semantics... Murderers can't murder eachother? Do you wanna have that tangent over the literal definition of murder? We can.

Yawn.

In the meantime, if you wanna quibble and insinuate I've taken some side in this conflict, get over yourself. I'm sick of them both, to be quite honest. And yes, murder - by both sides - is well documented.

Hopefully we won't have to chicken-vs.-egg it? ... again?

Does your ideological ally is this endless argument ever share ANY blame? ...

Originally Posted by Hamar

If I had the time or desire I would dig through your posts and see if

Ha! Make the time, or quit making up some misinformed insinuation so as to troll for a reaction.

Originally Posted by Hamar

you referred to Obama as a murder for killing OBL. I am guessing that was different somehow, right?

Keep guessing. Your track record is grand.

It would be irrelevant, because If I had to wager a guess, I'd say OBL's been dead for 10 years.

Somebody got murdered that night, yes. But I don't believe it was your favorite boogeyman.

See "Hamar": All administrations lie. ... But to me, degree matters. I don't think it matters to people like you. Obama's WoT lies haven't been 1/100th as damaging as the Texas Leaguer's.

You wanna continue that tangent, feel free to create a separate thread for it.

[IcyPatriot]

This is only on a few sites ... but I'll post it and see where it goes.
Very interesting ... from our take and from Egypts take ... Morsi vs Iran terrorist supporting ????
Obama

When Secretary of State Hillary Clinton arrived in Jerusalem from Bangkok Tuesday, she tried assuring Netanyahu that President Obama had decided to accelerate the construction of an elaborate US system of electronic security fences along the Suez Canal and northern Sinai. It would also cork up the Philadelphi route through which arms are smuggled into the Gaza Strip.

US security and civilian units will need to be deployed in Egyptian Sinai to man the fence system and operate it as an active counter-measure for obstructing the smuggling of Iranian weapons supplies.

The prime minister said he welcomed the president’s proposal to expedite the fence project, but it would take months to obtain Egyptian clearance. Meanwhile, the Palestinians would have plenty of time to replenish their weapons stocks after Israel’s Gaza campaign. It was therefore too soon to stop the campaign at this point or hold back a ground incursion.

Clinton was sympathetic to this argument. Soon after, President Obama was on the phone to Netanyahu with an assurance that US troops would be in place in Sinai next week, after he had obtained President Morsi’s consent for them to go into immediate action against Iranian smuggling networks.

[DarrylS]

Originally Posted by IcyPatriot

This is only on a few sites ... but I'll post it and see where it goes.
Very interesting ... from our take and from Egypts take ... Morsi vs Iran terrorist supporting ????
Obama

I think he is referring to this statement.. but there is some skepticism, as often lately one source is not enough, and corraboration is needed..

US security and civilian units will need to be deployed in Egyptian Sinai to man the fence system and operate it as an active counter-measure for obstructing the smuggling of Iranian weapons supplies.

The prime minister said he welcomed the president’s proposal to expedite the fence project, but it would take months to obtain Egyptian clearance.

This action seems to be more about Iran, than it does about the palestinians..

Obama

“Once the missile and arms consignments depart Iranian ports or Libyan arms bazaars, Tehran has no direct control of their transit from point to point through Egypt until they reach Sinai and their Gaza destination,” Debka reports. “All the same, a US special forces operation against the Sinai segment of the Iranian smuggling route would count as the first overt American military strike against an Iranian military interest.”

By opening the Sinai door to an American troop deployment for Israel’s defense, recognizes that the US force also insures Israel against Cairo revoking or failing to honor the peace treaty Egypt signed with Israel in 1979,” adds Debka

This is not a good move for Americans... just what we need is another war.

[IcyPatriot]

Originally Posted by DarrylS

I think he is referring to this statement.. but there is some skepticism, as often lately one source is not enough, and corraboration is needed..



This action seems to be more about Iran, than it does about the palestinians..

Obama



This is not a good move for Americans... just what we need is another war.

Morsi is biting big chunks of territory here what with his changes to the constitution there and now this ... he'll be lucky to stay alive IMO. Iran won't be happy and the conservatives in Egypt are already unhappy and there's demonstrations in the streets over his trying to acquire more power.

[PatriotsReign]

Originally Posted by IcyPatriot

Morsi is biting big chunks of territory here what with his changes to the constitution there and now this ... he'll be lucky to stay alive IMO. Iran won't be happy and the conservatives in Egypt are already unhappy and there's demonstrations in the streets over his trying to acquire more power.

It's the day after Thanksgiving....but I am very grateful not to have been born in anywhere in the Middle East. I view being born there as a curse...unless one gets the heck out.