Too Fast, Too Furious? - New England Patriots Forums

PatsFanInVa · 06-28-2012, 12:06 AM

Fortune Magazine's out with the results of six months' work of investigation... "Why, that's interesting!."

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

Quote:

"Republican senators are whipping up the country into a psychotic frenzy with these reports that are patently false," says Linda Wallace, a special agent with the Internal Revenue Service's criminal investigation unit who was assigned to the Fast and Furious team (and recently retired from the IRS). A self-described gun-rights supporter, Wallace has not been criticized by Issa's committee.

Good read.

Patriot_in_NY · 06-28-2012, 02:40 AM

Well there you have it then.... According to Fortune 500's investigation, it's all much ado about nothing. They read 2000 documents after all and talked to a few people that have a real incentive to lie.

No sweat then, we'll just review the other 76,000 documents and be on our way. Oh wait, Holder is refusing to cooperate, and telling a body that has every right to ask for them to pound sand.

Remember, the cover up ALWAYS overshadows and is worse then the crime itself. Holder is about to find that out.

***DarrylS*** · 06-28-2012, 03:53 AM

Read part of it, and it is way complicated. Without regard, there seems to be a lot of political motivation to pursue Holder and Obama.

Issa has been flip flopping since last Sunday he said that Obama was not involved, but Tuesday he said he was. This makes great theater, and wonder if they got off the big stage and went to a private room this could be resolved. But we have a congress that is more inclined to focus on this theater than to get results.

One thing that has become obvious, is that Crybaby Boehner is not all that hot on this issue.. take for example scheduling this today, the same day as the Supreme Court Decision on healthcare.

***Nikolai*** · 06-28-2012, 05:33 AM

Quote:

The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

The author establishes her stance.

Quote:

Voth, 39, was a good choice for a Sisyphean task. Strapping and sandy-haired, the former Marine is cool-headed and punctilious to a fault.

The hero is described.

Quote:

...Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws."

"Gun violence prevention laws". Sounds Orwellian.

Quote:

But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

There you have it, right? Poor ATF.

Quote:

He had joined the ATF from the narcotics section of the Loudoun County sheriff's office in Virginia, where his blunt, even obnoxious manner did not earn him friends. He's "an ******* sometimes—there is no other way to put it," says his former partner, Ken Dondero, who served as best man at Dodson's wedding. "He's almost too honest. He believes that if he has a thought in his head, it's there to broadcast to everyone."

Voth, MacAllister, and a third agent, Tonya English, were quintessential by-the-book types. By contrast, Dodson and two other new arrivals, Olindo "Lee" Casa and Lawrence Alt, seemed to chafe at ATF rules and procedures.

The baddie is introduced.

Quote:

Dodson's faction grew antagonistic to Voth. They regularly fired off snide e-mails and seemed to delight in mocking Voth and his methodical nature.

Hit piece on Dodson? Firing off emails at the strapping, sandy-haired, punctilious, and methodical Voth?

Obvious slant in the article. I suppose it provides the proverbial "other side of the coin" to the type of article that Issa himself would write whilst coming to the opposite conclusion.

I'm about halfway through, but there's really nothing new so far except an attempt to turn it into a "he said/she said". It's so slanted, one is left to wonder how much Holder et al (or his supporters) were involved in its genesis.

***DarrylS*** · 06-28-2012, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikolai

I'm about halfway through, but there's really nothing new so far except an attempt to turn it into a "he said/she said". It's so slanted, one is left to wonder how much Holder et al (or his supporters) were involved in its genesis.

I believe the genesis was "Wide Receiver", pursued under a previous administrtion..

There was a gunwalking tactic used in Minnesota in 1996...

'Fast and Furious' gun sting had '96 precedent in Minnesota | StarTribune.com

Quote:

The allegations in Arizona echo criticisms of the ATF's Minnesota operation. Mark Koscielski, a federally licensed firearms dealer and south Minneapolis gun store owner, was fighting the city over zoning at the time. He also was cooperating with Gillett and other ATF agents in tracking gun sales to suspected gang associates -- often young women with no felony records who could easily pass criminal background checks.

The issue in both the Phoenix and Minneapolis operations was one of tactics: Whether to seize firearms from criminals as soon as possible or let them "walk" to identify higher-ups in trafficking networks.

"Rather than reducing sales, guns were sold in numbers greater than the ATF and the Minneapolis Police Department could safely track and control," Lillehaug said.

PatsFanInVa · 06-28-2012, 07:21 AM

Nik, I definitely expect better from you. The Obama Administration is now at the genesis of articles in Fortune? Have you seen where his wall street "support" has gone over the last few years?

Leaving aside the implication that Fortune can be counted on as a mouthpiece for a political point of view, unless maybe it's to run someone against Forbes in a proxy war for the magazine infighting or something -- this is not the magazine you'd choose for the job for a political hit-piece. Additionally, it kicks Obama in the nutsack about 1/3 of the way down, claiming that the administration walked way back from their original position ("nothing to see here") so as not to drag gun laws into this electoral cycle.

At the very least, it raised the question of why there's no gun-sale database, so you don't have to come up with exotic schemes to try to prevent unlimited gun-running to criminal gangs (in the border context.)

Finish the article, and I'll talk to you later.

PFnV

Gotta get out & get to work. Finish the article, and let me know how you think

***Harry Boy*** · 06-28-2012, 07:24 AM

Why didn't the Obama gang want to show the documents, what are they hiding?

IllegalContact · 06-28-2012, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Boy

Why didn't the Obama gang want to show the documents, what are they hiding?

exactly......why the pressing need to use executive privilege?

libbies are going to play the 'politics' card, any yet, the big pink elephant in the room says otherwise.

without a presentation of all documents, it is a cover up

Real World · 06-28-2012, 08:05 AM

Transparency. Anyone remember that word?

To me, if guns were sold by our government, in a crime sting of sorts, and ended up being found at crime scenes inside our borders (one being used to kill a us border patrol agent), then questions need to be asked, and someone at the top has to lose their job. Is politics a part of this? Oh god yes. It's always a part of everything in DC. Still, at the same time, someone clearly either lied, or fudged the truth, over an operation that resulted in a US patrol agents death.

wistahpatsfan · 06-28-2012, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsFanInVa

Nik, I definitely expect better from you. The Obama Administration is now at the genesis of articles in Fortune? Have you seen where his wall street "support" has gone over the last few years?

Leaving aside the implication that Fortune can be counted on as a mouthpiece for a political point of view, unless maybe it's to run someone against Forbes in a proxy war for the magazine infighting or something -- this is not the magazine you'd choose for the job for a political hit-piece. Additionally, it kicks Obama in the nutsack about 1/3 of the way down, claiming that the administration walked way back from their original position ("nothing to see here") so as not to drag gun laws into this electoral cycle.

At the very least, it raised the question of why there's no gun-sale database, so you don't have to come up with exotic schemes to try to prevent unlimited gun-running to criminal gangs (in the border context.)

Finish the article, and I'll talk to you later.

PFnV

Gotta get out & get to work. Finish the article, and let me know how you think

First:
This investigation by the Fortune journalist took months and began before this whole thing got a big head of steam. The motivation may have been political but there was no detectable bias as far as I could detect. Maybe I missed something. I believe it.

Second:
The the whole "Fast and Furious" investigation by Issa & Co. has been fueled by the NRA and other gun rights groups who have this wierd idea that Obama's actively seeking to strip the 2nd Ammendment, and if they haven't yet, they will. Well, they haven't yet. In fact, gun rights have been expanded under Obama, just not enought for the NRA, who would not be satisfied with the protection of the 2nd until every man, woman and child is packing at least one loaded gun without any background check or safety mechanism. That's their margin of error. The NRA employees in Congress are out to get Obama and couldn't be happier to do anything that a) undermines Obama and b) makes them look good to the Teabaggers and Ted Nugent and c) keeps the money coming in from the NRA and "Freedom PACS". Without the base of this conspiracy theory, this case goes nowhere.

Third:
THe Democrats look like a bunch of limp-dikt cream puffs again when they are under even the slightest pressure. They demonstrate that they- unlike the Republicans- are incapable of making a stand and protecting their President when he's in trouble. We saw it during Clinton and we're seeing it again. The Republicans do the reverse, which is why we have seen a general drift to the right in this country. Bush goes and sends over 4000 Americans to their deaths for no reason and the Dems fall in line when everyone knew it was a bunch of bulls#!t because of political expedience. Banks need to be dismantled and Wall Street pulls off the biggest heist in history, and they do nothing. In fact, they do the opposite of nothing. They are undisciplined whores and will deservedly be run over in the next general election because they fail to circle the wagons and make a stand.