The Poor Stay Poor - New England Patriots Forums

PatriotsReign · 05-10-2012, 06:06 AM

The Poor Stay Poor

The poor stay poor - Economy

"The spread between the rich and poor has also widened, as income inequality increases. The difference in median income between the highest and lowest quintiles was $80,500 during the 1996-2006 period. That's nearly $30,000 more than it was two decades earlier."

Not sure what other's thoughts are on this, but I have a couple....

-If one is on gov't assistance and doesn't work their tail off to better themselves, do they deserve to be "better off" today than they were 20 years ago?

-People who experience some success typically work for more success and market themselves for jobs that pay more over time.

The "poverty-cycle" isn't about victims...or at least if one wants to get out of it, they have to stop being a victim and do something about it. That is no one's responsibility but the individual.

My annual earnings went from near poverty 20 years ago to almost 6 times that salary today. Did I have to work for it? Yes, I did.

One can't rely upon gov't assistance and then cry about being in the same place 20 years later if you're still on gov't assistance.

***Patters*** · 05-10-2012, 06:32 AM

I think there are all sorts of issues:

- More people than we like to admit are cognitively impaired or otherwise disabled and have no idea or cannot move on.
- More people than we like to admit really do not have the money to even take the bus and job hunt on a regular basis, plus poor people tend to live in areas where jobs are few and far between.
- Most poor people work close-to-minimum wage jobs that often don't guarantee regular hours. They are often very tired from these jobs and very discouraged.
- Middle class people tend to take for granted the advantages of culture, race, family background, etc. that contributed to their ability to succeed.
- Poor people tend to be discriminated against in our legal system so are more likely to have CORIs (and not the resources to even seal them), which makes it even more difficult for them to find work.
- Many poor people have physical and social limitations that make add to the difficulty of them getting ahead. If you're exceptionally short, tall, unattractive, etc., you sometimes live with insecurities that are hard to overcome.
- That said, there are people who play the system, hire corrupt lawyers, etc., and we need to do something about them.

The reality is that most people are not exceptional and do not have the skills to leave the class they were born into.

I think we need to replace welfare with workfare, even though it will cost the taxpayers significantly more to provide wages, job training, facilities, daycare, and basic benefits. I think everyone should work (except for the small number who need to be institutionalized).

IllegalContact · 05-10-2012, 06:39 AM

aren't many of them simply too lazy? or is laziness some kind of "don't bother me, I'll laways be poor" excuse?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patters

I think there are all sorts of issues:

- More people than we like to admit are cognitively impaired or otherwise disabled and have no idea or cannot move on.
- More people than we like to admit really do not have the money to even take the bus and job hunt on a regular basis, plus poor people tend to live in areas where jobs are few and far between.
- Most poor people work close-to-minimum wage jobs that often don't guarantee regular hours. They are often very tired from these jobs and very discouraged.
- Middle class people tend to take for granted the advantages of culture, race, family background, etc. that contributed to their ability to succeed.
- Poor people tend to be discriminated against in our legal system so are more likely to have CORIs (and not the resources to even seal them), which makes it even more difficult for them to find work.
- Many poor people have physical and social limitations that make add to the difficulty of them getting ahead. If you're exceptionally short, tall, unattractive, etc., you sometimes live with insecurities that are hard to overcome.
- That said, there are people who play the system, hire corrupt lawyers, etc., and we need to do something about them.

The reality is that most people are not exceptional and do not have the skills to leave the class they were born into.

I think we need to replace welfare with workfare, even though it will cost the taxpayers significantly more to provide wages, job training, facilities, daycare, and basic benefits. I think everyone should work (except for the small number who need to be institutionalized).

PatsWSB47 · 05-10-2012, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patters

I think there are all sorts of issues:

- More people than we like to admit are cognitively impaired or otherwise disabled and have no idea or cannot move on.
- More people than we like to admit really do not have the money to even take the bus and job hunt on a regular basis, plus poor people tend to live in areas where jobs are few and far between.
- Most poor people work close-to-minimum wage jobs that often don't guarantee regular hours. They are often very tired from these jobs and very discouraged.
- Middle class people tend to take for granted the advantages of culture, race, family background, etc. that contributed to their ability to succeed.
- Poor people tend to be discriminated against in our legal system so are more likely to have CORIs (and not the resources to even seal them), which makes it even more difficult for them to find work.
- Many poor people have physical and social limitations that make add to the difficulty of them getting ahead. If you're exceptionally short, tall, unattractive, etc., you sometimes live with insecurities that are hard to overcome.
- That said, there are people who play the system, hire corrupt lawyers, etc., and we need to do something about them.

The reality is that most people are not exceptional and do not have the skills to leave the class they were born into.

I think we need to replace welfare with workfare, even though it will cost the taxpayers significantly more to provide wages, job training, facilities, daycare, and basic benefits. I think everyone should work (except for the small number who need to be institutionalized).

I think that's a good idea and it just might turn a culture of total consumers to one that also has producers.

IllegalContact · 05-10-2012, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsSB42

I think that's a good idea and it just might turn a culture of total consumers to also be producers.

yes.....we would feel much better about ourselves if a person could manufacture his own TV, microwave, and kegerator as well as the beer.

the first 2, you can likely score the parts at u-do-it electronics. the 3rd one is doable by finding a small fridge on craigslist, cutting a hole in the top and mounting a tap

PatsWSB47 · 05-10-2012, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IllegalContact

yes.....we would feel much better about ourselves if a person could manufacture his own TV, microwave, and kegerator as well as the beer.

the first 2, you can likely score the parts at u-do-it electronics. the 3rd one is doable by finding a small fridge on craigslist, cutting a hole in the top and mounting a tap

I have no idea what your point is here.

PatsFanInVa · 05-10-2012, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patters

I think we need to replace welfare with workfare, even though it will cost the taxpayers significantly more to provide wages, job training, facilities, daycare, and basic benefits. I think everyone should work (except for the small number who need to be institutionalized).

Gotta get to work, ironically, so only replying to this para - I love how you "discover" this concept and get "yeah that's a good idea," but nobody here would pay for any of the component pieces (of course "yeah that's a good idea" might just be 1 or 2 guys.) It is a good idea, but if they ever did it this board would overload in about 5 minutes with a recursive loop of apoplectic posts about socialism, communism, and of course fascism, which the right wing now likes to pretend was a left wing movement.

The knee-jerk against helping the poor out of dependent situations was so extreme the Dems even gave up on it - ever notice how the entire focus is now triage, keeping more of the middle class from becoming poor?

Glad to see we still care, I'm with ya Patters... but the rest of you guys, if I see a big fat thread where you support these programs to end welfare because that phrase sounds good now, be ready to support it bill by bill (re-training, daycare, etc. at taxpayer expense.)

PS, careful about "everybody should work"

These people should not:

- People who are taxed at 15% because they don't work for a living
- Their wives

However children should work and single parents should simultaneously work, take care of their children so they don't grow up wild, and get an education (with no money.)

That's how we do it...

***DarrylS*** · 05-10-2012, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

The Poor Stay Poor

The poor stay poor - Economy

"The spread between the rich and poor has also widened, as income inequality increases. The difference in median income between the highest and lowest quintiles was $80,500 during the 1996-2006 period. That's nearly $30,000 more than it was two decades earlier."

Not sure what other's thoughts are on this, but I have a couple....

-If one is on gov't assistance and doesn't work their tail off to better themselves, do they deserve to be "better off" today than they were 20 years ago?

-People who experience some success typically work for more success and market themselves for jobs that pay more over time.

The "poverty-cycle" isn't about victims...or at least if one wants to get out of it, they have to stop being a victim and do something about it. That is no one's responsibility but the individual.

My annual earnings went from near poverty 20 years ago to almost 6 times that salary today. Did I have to work for it? Yes, I did.

One can't rely upon gov't assistance and then cry about being in the same place 20 years later if you're still on gov't assistance.

There is no mention of gov't assistance in the article, so not sure how you put that into play...

This seems to be more about the working poor, than welfare recipients...

You do not need an economist to tell you that the poor and middle class are stagnant, while the rich are getting richer and solidifying their position at the top.. take a ride in any affluent ocean front community and note the number and type of homes being built.

Commencing with the tax cuts for the rich, it has only gotten worse..

There are a lot of folks working at the bottom in marginal jobs, with marginal income, with no hope of upward mobility..

Programs like workfare, denote increased state/local intervention.. thus more bureaucracy, more employees and probably a classic f.. up.

PatsWSB47 · 05-10-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsFanInVa

Gotta get to work, ironically, so only replying to this para - I love how you "discover" this concept and get "yeah that's a good idea," but nobody here would pay for any of the component pieces (of course "yeah that's a good idea" might just be 1 or 2 guys.) It is a good idea, but if they ever did it this board would overload in about 5 minutes with a recursive loop of apoplectic posts about socialism, communism, and of course fascism, which the right wing now likes to pretend was a left wing movement.

The knee-jerk against helping the poor out of dependent situations was so extreme the Dems even gave up on it - ever notice how the entire focus is now triage, keeping more of the middle class from becoming poor?

Glad to see we still care, I'm with ya Patters... but the rest of you guys, if I see a big fat thread where you support these programs to end welfare because that phrase sounds good now, be ready to support it bill by bill (re-training, daycare, etc. at taxpayer expense.)

PS, careful about "everybody should work"

These people should not:

- People who are taxed at 15% because they don't work for a living
- Their wives

However children should work and single parents should simultaneously work, take care of their children so they don't grow up wild, and get an education (with no money.)

That's how we do it...

I was sincere when I said it I thought was a good idea if you were taking a shot my way, maybe I'm paranoid. I admit i'm big on personal responsibility but at the same time I know people in a culture of total dependence aren't just going to spontaneously combust it. They'll need need some help with everything Patters mentioned. And how much more will it cost us anyway? A good portion of it would be coming from what's being paid for already to keep people poor and dependent on assistance . If it does succeed then more people will work their way out of that situation and will be paying a lot more of their own way than they did.

Real World · 05-10-2012, 12:58 PM

In my experiences with subsidized housing, and the tenants that recieve it, the free bennies become a lifestyle. Very few tenants, matter of fact only one, in the decade plus that I've been doing this, has moved out and into a market type property. Sure some of the people are indeed unable to further themselves due to physical contraints or what have you, but many of the able bodied simply choose not to. As I've been told directly, why would you go out and work harder, and make life harder, when you can work less, and have a less stressful lifestyle. So while there are definately people who need assistance, and can't better themselves through no genuine fault of their own, there are lots more who simply prefer to work and pay at a 30 cents on the dollar rate.