ARE YOU NEW HERE? NOT LOGGED IN? PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO REGISTER FOR AN ACCOUNT AND LOGIN TO REMOVE THIS WINDOW
Welcome to PatsFans.com. Do you have an account? If not - please take a moment to register for our forum and experience a much smoother experience with fewer ads, along with no longer having to see this notification window. Also learn about how you can receive a free Patriots T-Shirt from the Patriots Official ProShop by CLICKING HERE. Please enjoy your stay here, and Go Pats!
"Traders said Greece has turned to Iran as the supplier of last resort despite rising pressure from Washington and Brussels to stifle trade as part of a campaign against Tehran's nuclear program.
The near paralysis of oil dealings with Greece, which has four refineries, shows how trade in Europe could stall due to a breakdown in trust caused by the euro zone debt crisis, which is threatening to spread to further countries."
__________________ "No one walking this earth knows what is truly righteous"
Last edited by PatriotsReign; 11-12-2011 at 06:22 AM..
DONATE TO PATSFANS.COM
RECEIVE A FREE PATS T-SHIRT AND SAVE 15% OFF WHEN YOU BUY FROM THE OFFICIAL PROSHOP!
Free T-Shirt & Save 15% Off!
Like Our Site? Please help support our site and server costs by DONATING TO PATSFANS.COM and receive a FREE PATRIOTS T-SHIRT and SAVE 15% off EVERY purchase you make from PatriotsProShop.com. You'll also receive added benefits to your account including Removing All Ads During Your Experience Here At Our Forum.
NEEDED YEARLY SITE DONATIONS: 345 | CURRENT # OF SUBSCRIBED SUPPORTERS: 98
It's interesting to me that, to date, the "haves" among the Europeans are (if haltingly) still backing their decision to be Europeans, economically speaking, rather than constituent nationalities.
It's interesting to me that, to date, the "haves" among the Europeans are (if haltingly) still backing their decision to be Europeans, economically speaking, rather than constituent nationalities.
Whether or not they desire to remain in the EU won't change their status as "Europeans"...but I get your point.
This is a tough one. If I were a citizen of a European nation, I wonder if I'd want to remain part of the EU. Even if I lived in a "have not" Euro nation, I think I still might want out.
Guess that's one reason for the word "contagion"...among several others.
We could take what is happening to the EU and apply it to the US if states start to default on their debt at some point.
California is in dire straights right now with revenues down over 6%. They have automatic "austerity" measures in place (i.e. automatic spending cuts)...it's a mess there too.
BTW....I never liked that movie
__________________ "No one walking this earth knows what is truly righteous"
Last edited by PatriotsReign; 11-12-2011 at 06:54 AM..
The Euro and EU as we know it is toast. Whether they boot the bottom feeders, disolve the union and currency, or downsize in some way, something has to give. I personally feel that Italians would be much better off with their own currency. The same goes for Spain, Greece, Portugal, etc. All the Euro has done is inflate the cost of the average citizens lives to levels unseen. When I ask my friends and family there if they were better off before the inception of the Euro, or afterward, the answer is always before.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
At present, it's a lot like if you took one of the "have" states that get taxed for national projects and get less back than their dollar (such as Massachusetts or Virginia,) gave them full sovereignty, and asked them whether they want to continually bail out leeches like Texas, where the benefits and jobs those taxes go to go.
Germany is Massachusetts. Greece is Texas. Sovereign debt is Europe's version of our uneven distribution of federal taxation outcomes.
That was also something like the case in the era when the states were arguing the Constitution. There was not yet a mechanism for this system, but we all walked into it, with eyes open, knowing we'd form a union and those with more would help those with less.
Now that said, we don't know which way Europe will go. It's the 21st century, not the 18th.
It's a matter of whether the haves can continue to sell the notion that they'll absorb the mis-steps of the have-nots.
If I'm a German, why do I have to accept some amount of "austerity" so Greece doesn't fold? The answer of course is that the damage is done. You can't escape the collapse of Greece if you have money that's somehow tied up in Greece or tainted by Greece. The banks, as we all know, are globally interwoven; and within the Eurozone they may as well have zero nationality whatsoever.
Even from a cold and distanced perspective, it may well be more painful to somehow cut ties with "Europe" than to absorb the crisis in Europe's southern tier. Stop the bleeding at Greece, prop up Italy and Spain, and you're halfway there. Don't, and nobody can really tell you the outcome, but it ain't good.
At present, it's a lot like if you took one of the "have" states that get taxed for national projects and get less back than their dollar (such as Massachusetts or Virginia,) gave them full sovereignty, and asked them whether they want to continually bail out leeches like Texas, where the benefits and jobs those taxes go to go.
Germany is Massachusetts. Greece is Texas. Sovereign debt is Europe's version of our uneven distribution of federal taxation outcomes.
That was also something like the case in the era when the states were arguing the Constitution. There was not yet a mechanism for this system, but we all walked into it, with eyes open, knowing we'd form a union and those with more would help those with less.
Now that said, we don't know which way Europe will go. It's the 21st century, not the 18th.
It's a matter of whether the haves can continue to sell the notion that they'll absorb the mis-steps of the have-nots.
If I'm a German, why do I have to accept some amount of "austerity" so Greece doesn't fold? The answer of course is that the damage is done. You can't escape the collapse of Greece if you have money that's somehow tied up in Greece or tainted by Greece. The banks, as we all know, are globally interwoven; and within the Eurozone they may as well have zero nationality whatsoever.
Even from a cold and distanced perspective, it may well be more painful to somehow cut ties with "Europe" than to absorb the crisis in Europe's southern tier. Stop the bleeding at Greece, prop up Italy and Spain, and you're halfway there. Don't, and nobody can really tell you the outcome, but it ain't good.
PFnV
I'd say California is more like Greece than Texas right now...but I guess either one fits the profile.
It is tough for Europe...maybe even frightening. I wouldn't be surprised to see us get into this bailout directly although I wouldn't like it. European countries in the EU just don't have the same "I am an citizen of the United States of America" mentality or patriotism (if you will).
If you watched any of the video link in my opening post, I like what Nigel had to say although I don't know if represents the feelings of citizens of the EU. It appeared many of his fellow politicians didn't care for it...self-preservation and all.
__________________ "No one walking this earth knows what is truly righteous"
Regardless of what their betters decide, you have to wonder how long the people in places like Germany (who retire at 67) will be okay with bailing out people in places like Greece (who retire at 61 and are fighting against plans to raise it to 63).
She added: "We can't have a common currency where some get lots of vacation time and others very little. That won't work in the long term."
There are indeed significant differences between retirement ages in the two countries. Greece announced reforms to its pension system in early 2010 aimed at reducing early retirement and raising the average age of retirement to 63. Incentives to keep workers in the labor market beyond 65 have likewise been adopted. Germany voted in 2007 to raise the retirement age from 65 to 67 over the next several years.
In January of this year, Merkel proposed a "pact for competitiveness" that would force EU members to coordinate their national policies on issues like tax, wages and retirement ages. A watered-down version of the pact was agreed upon at a summit in March.
At present, it's a lot like if you took one of the "have" states that get taxed for national projects and get less back than their dollar (such as Massachusetts or Virginia,) gave them full sovereignty, and asked them whether they want to continually bail out leeches like Texas, where the benefits and jobs those taxes go to go.
Germany is Massachusetts. Greece is Texas. Sovereign debt is Europe's version of our uneven distribution of federal taxation outcomes.
That was also something like the case in the era when the states were arguing the Constitution. There was not yet a mechanism for this system, but we all walked into it, with eyes open, knowing we'd form a union and those with more would help those with less.
Now that said, we don't know which way Europe will go. It's the 21st century, not the 18th.
It's a matter of whether the haves can continue to sell the notion that they'll absorb the mis-steps of the have-nots.
If I'm a German, why do I have to accept some amount of "austerity" so Greece doesn't fold? The answer of course is that the damage is done. You can't escape the collapse of Greece if you have money that's somehow tied up in Greece or tainted by Greece. The banks, as we all know, are globally interwoven; and within the Eurozone they may as well have zero nationality whatsoever.
Even from a cold and distanced perspective, it may well be more painful to somehow cut ties with "Europe" than to absorb the crisis in Europe's southern tier. Stop the bleeding at Greece, prop up Italy and Spain, and you're halfway there. Don't, and nobody can really tell you the outcome, but it ain't good.
PFnV
Texas is Greece? More like California is Greece. The problem with the tax line your using, is that we've never seen a breakdown, or explanation of how the dollars out versus dollars in is actually calculated.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
The European Union
Linear Mode
