Stokes

Although Patters you have to be happy about the second part of the speech, which I just listened to, which is a laundry list of things we need to put more money into, though he says to reward parents doing the right thing, not to help the deadbeats.

Real World

If we pay more taxes, maybe we can buy people a second parent. Maybe that's what Patters meant by needing more money to solve the problem.

Green smiley.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Patters

Well, I was not talking about black parents. I was talking about bad (or ineffective) parents in general. I intentionally did not mention race because I think upbringing and background are what results in problems. I don't think skin color is an predictor of anything. At any rate, do you think that parenting is a skill?

At any rate, in my opinion, it's not a matter of laying blame, it's a matter of solving difficult problems. Imagine if your parents were raised by parents who who victims of all sorts of abuse -- a terrible educational system, job discrimination, housing discrimination, lack of law enforcement, angry and uneducated parents, etc., do you think there's a chance that your parents might not have learned the skills to be optimal parents? Do you think they might harbor resentment and might this resentment manifest itself as various psychological problems: rage, anxiety, depression, lack of self-esteem, fear of authority, even more serious disorders? Don't you see how these problems can be passed down from generation to generation? Sure, some people break out of these cycles, but frankly the vast majority of us end up more or less like those who raised us in terms of our psychological makeup, our values, and our economic status. For example, it's pretty well accepted now that people who are abusive grew up in abusive homes. These are the cycles we need to break.

BelichickFan

Look, tough guy (replacing what I really want to say so Tough Guy doesn't get pissy with me again), this thread is about black people.

Remember ?

otis p. driftwood

How? One of the arguments advanced even in the black community is that the government has done more to hurt the black family than help, effectively removing fathers from the equation. I don't know how true it is, I'm just saying--but at some point, when do the excuses run out?

It seems more like society (glance at the magazines next time you're in the check out line), and turn daytime TV...between the fake court shows and the Springer type shows, we've turned deviancy into the norm, and given 'cover' to all sorts of behavior that shouldn't be tolerated, let alone encouraged.

The people who've been successful are the people who've said "that's bull*****" and moved on. And I don't mean successful as in "made a million dollars", I mean just grown up, got a place to live, family, dog...simple stuff.

OTOH, we've got a generation of kids now trying to out 50 Cent Fitty himself--and I don't mean just black kids either.

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Patters

Actually, from what I've read is that the reason blacks support Democrats is that they've found that it's the government that has protected their interests. Without intervention from the government, there was all sorts of discrimination and when discrimination was largely outlawed, the Democrats supported programs to help those who were victims acclimate to a free society. As far as "how," I think daycare, jobs programs, affordable higher education, better schools, etc. are some of the obvious steps that can be taken.

Deviancy is relative to the times. The main difference now is that it's not kept secret. It's confronted, and victims have a voice. 100 years ago, what could a woman do if she was raped? The answer typically was, she could learn to hide the shame and live with it. TV and movies have shown deviants creative way of being abusive, but the abuse was always there.

It's an exceptional person who can break from the cycles he's born into. Sure there are kids who try to out 50 Cents 50 Cents, but that doesn't even mean they'll be made. It means they are kids who are trying to act tough. Those kids have always been around.

Patters

There's no apology. I, unlike you, are merely acknowledging reality and saying there has to be a reason why some people are bad or ineffective parents. You seem to think that if you hold someone's hand and say, "You have to practice personal responsibility," everything will be okay. Do you live in fantasyland? Telling someone how to behave does not change behavior. For instance, I would bet that those priests who engaged in child abuse knew it was wrong, but that was not enough for them to change their behavior. I would bet that you have behaviors in yourself that you would like to change, but are unable to. I think that's true for most people. It's very challenging to change behaviors. Behaviors, according to psychologists, are largely encoded in us by the time we're about 6 years old.

Patters

Well, if you want to talk about race again, we can. But, I was trying to generalize the issue to point out that people, regardless of race, have different experiences. There is no relevance to the color of their skin, so if we're talking about why some people are bad parents I have no choice but to generalize. You, on the other hand, seem to believe that race is relevant to the behavior of a person.

BelichickFan

You were trying to set me up to be a racist by having me comment on blacks in a thread about blacks then suddenly decide you were talking about any race. You were trying to set me up like the tough guy you are.

otis p. driftwood

How did we get from "deviancy" to a rape victim? I'm talking about the full on Jerry Springer/Ricki Lake obscenity filled "yeah well he's not really your kid because I was doing your brother your father and my brother too" kind of shows (and people), not a rape victim. As someone who's been very close to three women who were raped--I find it a trifle odd that you'd go there, and almost offensive.

A woman being raped is no more a deviant than a homosexual is.

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