John McCain you make me puke.. - Page 2 - New England Patriots Forums

Holy Diver · 05-19-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stokes

OT, but there is no evidence that was Rove.

my favorite excuse...

***PressCoverage*** · 05-19-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stokes

We went through this before, and I don't remember 1 shred of evidence that Rove was tied to that smear. Your evidence if I remember correctly was that Rove is slimy so it must have been him behind it. Am I "misremembering" that? Could be, wouldn't be the first time. I definitely couldn't find anything linking a member of the Bush campaign to the rumor.

I also don't ever recall saying anything about Ron Paul being a racist because of some questionable newsletters, I don't buy for a second that he is a bigot.

I also don't believe that Obama is a practicing muslim, or that he believes even one word of Wright's nonsense.

OK so I went back and checked, we did do this dance before and all you came up with was speculation from McCain's campaign and around the 'net. Here's what I wrote the last time, bold on the key part:

"So basically you can't provide any evidence to back up the claim that the Bush campaign or Karl Rove was behind that push poll or the rumors. I'm not looking for signed documents, I'm looking for ANYTHING linking the campaign to the poll. All I've found is speculation by McCain advisers (who of course would want to make the other campaign look bad by blaming it on them), opinion from some journalists, and a long list of opinion pieces that repeat the assertion that it was Rove without evidence, or referring to earlier articles that provide no evidence.

As you pointed out, Rove and Bush have both vigorously denied the rumor, though I didn't bother to use that as evidence they didn't do it, since of course they wouldn't admit to it. I can recognize a biased source, maybe if you're pointing to what the McCain campaign said as "evidence" you can not?

I don't think its a terribly high standard of proof to ask for some small shred of evidence linking the two. For example I found something possibly linking the Bush campaign to another phone poll conducted in 2000:

http://www.bartcopnation.com/dc/dcbo...8&topic_id=522

"Bush Campaign Accused of Using Push Polls Against McCain.
College of Charleston student Suzette Latsko said she received a telephone call from a woman who identified herself as an employee of Voter/Consumer Research, and that the caller misrepresented McCain’s positions and asked if Latsko knew McCain had been reprimanded for interfering with federal regulators in the savings and loan scandal. Voter/Consumer Research is listed as a polling contractor on Bush’s Federal Election Commission filings; the Bush campaign has paid Voter/Consumer Research $93,000 through December 31, 1999. Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer denied the call was a push poll, but said it was important that the Republican Party remember McCain’s role in the S&L crisis.

Bush Campaign Acknowledged Making Phone Calls.
Tucker Eskew, Bush’s South Carolina spokesman, acknowledged the Bush campaign made such calls, but claimed they were not “push polls.” Eskew added, “Show me a baseless comment in those questions.” "

So here we have a good example of at least a potential link, a firm paid by the Bush campaign conducting a poll that was questionable in the facts it presented. I can't find anything like this for the baby polling. All I can find is the rumor started by the a-hole Hand at Bob Jones University and propagated by what is called everywhere "unidentified" supporters.

I looked more this morning and still can't find anything. Again, I'm perfectly willing to believe that Rove would be capable of something like that, but absent any evidence I don't think we should be saying he did like it is a fact. Its speculation at this point, nothing more, even if you want it to be true."

The Rove Watch: 78 days.

again, it stands to reason that Rove's campaign operatives, who answer directly to him, would receive their marching order from Pig Boy himself. Based on Rove's vast history of slimy politics, and numerous Washington and S.C. insiders and reporters insisting it was Rove.

A December 1999 Dallas Morning News linked Rove to a series of campaign dirty tricks, including his College Republican efforts, allegedly starting a whisper campaign about Ann Richard being too gay-friendly, spreading stories about Jim Hightower’s involvement in a kickback scheme and leaking the educational history of Lena Guerrero. The article also outlined current dirty tricks and whisper campaigns against McCain in South Carolina, including that “McCain may be unstable as a result of being tortured while a prisoner of war in North Vietnam.” (DMN, 12/2/99) After the article was published, Rove blasted Slater in the Manchester, NH airport, “nose to nose” according to one witness, with Rove claiming Slater had “harmed his reputation,” Slater later noted. But according to one witness, “What was interesting then is that everyone on the campaign charter concluded that Rove was responsible for rumors about McCain.”

Regardless, the man said there is "no evidence." I believe there was plenty enough to make a reasonable deduction:

Quote:

Flying down to South Carolina after the upset defeat of Bush in the New Hampshire primary, Rove and Bush were said by a reliable source to have had a frank conversation about what was necessary to defeat Sen. John McCain, who had just defeated Bush in New Hampshire. A summit meeting was convened in Columbia and Rove delivered the message to the campaign operatives.

The candidate also tipped his hand to the strategy when he was overheard on a boom mike explaining his plans to Mike Fairs, a state senator. Fairs complained that Bush had not yet hit McCain's soft spots. "I'm going to," Bush said. "But I'm not going to do it on TV."

Because that's not the Rove way. Before the votes were cast, McCain was accused by Rove-managed surrogate groups of fathering a mixed-race child out of wedlock, being married to a drug addict, not being an attentive husband, using his wife's family fortune to buy his U.S. Senate seat and, worst of all, turning his back on Vietnam veterans; and all of this happened while George W. Bush was at rallies urging his primary opponent to please engage in a civilized debate on the issues.

On stage before the primary debate in Columbia, an enraged McCain confronted Bush. "You ought to be ashamed, George," McCain said.

"Senator, it's just politics," Bush answered.

"Everything's not politics, George."

At the media center in a Columbia hotel on primary night, it was obvious Rove's smear strategy had succeeded. When he passed my television crew's location on the riser, I acknowledged his achievement. "Congratulations, Karl. Looks like you did it."

"Hey, don't congratulate me," he said. "It was the candidate who won. He did it. Not me," Rove said.

"Sure, Karl. Whatever you say."

That there was only one candidate who benefited from the McCain Smears, whose campaign happened to be run by an operative with a long history of such behavior, makes the connection and the evidence for it at least worth mentioning, to put it mildly. But, of course, to you guys, there's just nothing there unless Rove's signature is found on a confession. And even then, maybe.

***DarrylS*** · 05-20-2008, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stokes

OT, but there is no evidence that was Rove.

Lets see how this Siegelman thing in Alabama plays out, if there is cooperations wouldn't it be interesting if Rove did play a role in that fiasco?? If that does happen maybe there will be more believers of the capabilities of that man.

Stokes · 05-20-2008, 09:31 AM

No doubt Rove would be capable of something like that, but I still can't find evidence linking the Bush campaign to it. I differentiate between the actual campaign and the inbred hick supporters of Bush who were pushing the black baby thing. I still can only find that McCain's campaign accused him (and of course you want to pin the dirty tricks on the other guy directly to make him look bad), and the conclusion of some journalists who heard Rove rip into a guy that accused him of doing it (and I still don't get how they came to that conclusion from the quotes I read). I give the McCain camp opinion no more weight than I do Bush and Rove coming out and denying it, neither side represents a credible source.

I will definitely say you are right though that Rove is CAPABLE of something like that, based on his history of slimy moves. That one rumor though is so far out there it is on a different level from other smears that he's made, which in the past have been based on some shred of truth. See the push polls they actually got caught doing in SC, a distortion of McCain's record, but not outright lies. Seems to me that the potential consequences of getting caught if they were responsible would be too great, basically political suicide.

***DarrylS*** · 05-20-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stokes

No doubt Rove would be capable of something like that, but I still can't find evidence linking the Bush campaign to it. I differentiate between the actual campaign and the inbred hick supporters of Bush who were pushing the black baby thing. I still can only find that McCain's campaign accused him (and of course you want to pin the dirty \. Seems to me that the potential consequences of getting caught if they were responsible would be too great, basically political suicide.

Cannot commit political suicide if you are already politically dead..

Stokes · 05-20-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJAJ15

Cannot commit political suicide if you are already politically dead..

If McCain won the nomination in 2000 and Al Gore won the White House (insert "but he DID win in 2000!" joke here) Bush would have been the top choice for 2004. That's reason enough for him to stay clear of anything too disgusting like this.

Holy Diver · 05-20-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stokes

Bush would have been the top choice for 2004. That's reason enough for him to stay clear of anything too disgusting like this.

I hope you mean Jeb Bush....

You DO understand that George Bush was the Rove candidate and Jeb Bush was the future Republican candidate.....right? You know about SC, and Johnny Mac...right.....?

Stokes · 05-20-2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy Diver

I hope you mean Jeb Bush....

You DO understand that George Bush was the Rove candidate and Jeb Bush was the future Republican candidate.....right? You know about SC, and Johnny Mac...right.....?

Jeb was/is too smart to take the job. We're talking about SC in 2000, and the smear campaign that went on against McCain then.

Holy Diver · 05-20-2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stokes

Jeb was/is too smart to take the job. We're talking about SC in 2000, and the smear campaign that went on against McCain then.

yeah...that was really the turning point in BOTH bush boys lives. Rove decided....or some people cold calling and making flyers decided on their own.....to spread teh black love child story, and propel Bush to the eventual nomination.

You should check out "Bush's Brain"

it really lays all of this out about Jeb. Too Smart to take the job????? Really? We are going there?

otis p. driftwood · 05-20-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy Diver

yeah...that was really the turning point in BOTH bush boys lives. Rove decided....or some people cold calling and making flyers decided on their own.....to spread teh black love child story, and propel Bush to the eventual nomination.

You should check out "Bush's Brain"

it really lays all of this out about Jeb. Too Smart to take the job????? Really? We are going there?

What have you got about Jeb? By all accounts he's a decent, level headed, thoughtful guy, more like the old man in most ways.

(and while I can't stand the old man, I know a lot of people, libs included that do like him).