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Wow, a leftie said something that serves to exculpate a rightie agena. My GOD I am humiliated.
To the actual point, something that seems sadly beyond the grasp of our local denizens, terrorism doesn't have a home church/mosque/synagog, or home country. It's a method, not an ethnic group. It's a deplorable method - and it is far from the only deplorable method, but it's one of the worse ones I can think of at large at the moment: the purposeful targeting of the non-combatant, together with the willful erosion of the difference between combatant and non-combatant.
PR, your assertion that it's "worse" for someone from another culture to kill you than for your neighbor to kill you because he has an axe to grind, is an honest if not an intellectually very rigorous point of view. We do fear the "other," and that is programmed in.
However, the Mrs. points out that she has in the past made a similar point as regards hate crime legislation; it seems that your honest, "in-touch-with-your-gut" response is selective.
But I can actually make your argument for you, on that count - and this is pretty much just what the Mrs. was saying: You want to get a pass for nationalist/ethnic/racial reaction to the "out-group" attacking your nation. You want that to be worse than your local blue-eyed blond attacking your nation from within. But you don't accord that right to anybody else. If someone attacks you because of your identity as a Jew for example, it is not supposed to be any worse based on precisely the same gut reaction. So the gut reaction is based on what one dictates ex cathedra is the basis of identity. Ho hum, a Jewish or gay or Black American is just being murdered by another American, or his/her property is being destroyed, or he/she is being threatened, or whatever. It is no worse, because they are not foreigners -- and I declare ex cathedra that other levels of identity don't matter. Even this double-standard falls apart, however, the moment the attacker is born to immigrant parents from the middle east -- aha! An American of Pakistani descent!!! That's the worst thing I can imagine!!!!!
Here's another way to think about it, which is more satisfying if you feel that internal inconsistency points to a bad argument:
Terrorism shares with hate crime other more important factors than our gut desire for greater vengeance.
Both carry with them the intent, and the attendant future likelihood, that another member of the targeted (hated) group will be attacked. Because of this factor, each hate crime or act of terrorism serves to terrorize, intentionally, the remainder of the group targeted. This crime is absent in the case of, for example, a husband killed by a wife for the insurance money. Although knowledge of such things might make me careful in choosing a wife, there are no websites in which wives deride all husbands and swear to continue killing them for the insurance money unless their demands are met, or declaring all husbands to be worthy of death, according to the grand scriptures of the ya ya sisterhood or somesuch.
The intentional crime against the remainder of the community, in the case of a hate crime, is a rational justification for its separate treatment.
In the case of terrorism, it is the intentional crime against the remainder of a nation, a people, a religion, etc. The shooter in Norway brings further terror to the nation, just as much as the doctor-killers embraced by the right wing here. He appears to be after those he believes are too friendly with people he doesn't like, based on their politics.
It would be no more or less threatening were he a Muslim or a Pakistani, in terms of the reality of the threat presented -- just as American medical practitioners or civilian government workers are not afraid that some wild-eyed Yemeni is about to bomb the clinics or local IRS offices.
Your personal viewpoint is infused with your own personal fears, and you discount the parallel fears that others among your countrymen and women must live with.
Theirs are real. So are yours. I don't think any of us should tickle one another's amygdalas using bombs and guns. I trust that you, too, oppose this tactic. That effect exists in any murder, in a grand-lottery sort of fashion. In the case of hate crime or terrorist act, that effect is purposely focused on a specific group, to tell other members of that group that they, too, are marked for death by some stranger. The tactic is as comfortable for the "turner diaries" crowd as for seasoned jihadis; it is not entirely coincidental that there have, in fact, been contacts between the jihadis and the American militia groups.
So as ee cummings asked,
How do you like your blue-eyed boy now, Mr. Death?
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Oddly, I feel much less ashamed that I responded to a stock rightie excuse that happened to be offered by (according to you) a leftie, than I would feel if I refused to read anything posted of substance.
"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."
What's really troubling, and certainly telling, is how some posters in here are almost fifty (should say 'gitty', not fifty, damn smartphone), if not hoping that this loon was driven by christianity. Kinda sad considering 90+ people died.
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
Last edited by Real World; 07-23-2011 at 07:15 PM..
What's really troubling, and certainly telling, is how some posters in here are almost fifty, if not hoping that this loon was driven by christianity.
What's also telling is that I do not recall Major Malik Nadal Hasan ever being called "this loon driven by Islam," by any rightie on this board.
He was never referred to as "batsh#t crazy," or a lunatic or anything else. He was, first and foremost, a Muslim - and therefore, a terrorist.
I'm not even saying that Anders Behring Breivik is not a raving lunatic, or that he isn't batsh#t crazy, he probably is. But then again, anyone who does what he did, what Hasan did, what Jared Lee Loughner did or what Timothy McVeigh did is, most likely, certifiably crazy.
My point is, you can't use religion when it's convenient to your personal beliefs and then discard it when it's inconvenient because that particular finger is pointing too close to home.
If we accept that Breivik is insane because of what he did then we must also at least entertain the idea that what Hasan did was also caused by insanity.
After all, Breivik is an individual who has defined himself as a Christian, and as such, is not representative of the entirety of Christianity or the embodiment of Christian belief - and Hasan has also defined himself as a Muslim individual and, also as such, is not representative of the entirety of Islam or the embodiment of Islamic belief.
If there is anything to be learned from this tragedy in Norway it is that profiling not only doesn't prevent squat, it is, in fact, counterproductive and that there will always be individuals of all colors and races and religions who can be genuinely regarded as batsh#t crazy.
__________________ "The blade itself incites to deeds of violence."
2) On “Hate Theologies” he blogged:
“Islam (ism) has historically led to 300 million deaths. Communism has historically led to 100 million deaths. Nazism has historically led to 6-20 million deaths. ALL hate ideologies should be treated equally.”
The document, headlined "A European Declaration of Independence," is written by Andrew Berwick, but the author says in the text this is an anglicized version of Anders Breivik. In the 1,500-page document the author expresses his extreme anti-Muslim political views and describes the attacks which are to be carried out.
The book describes how to make bombs from fertilizers and how to receive them in large quantities by setting up an agricultural company.
The author says he emailed the book to thousands of people, mostly his "patriotic Facebook friends" and their friends. He says it took him nine years and some 300,000 to write the manifesto, reflecting his background and political views.
One more thing ... this is messed up: 50 minutes before they send a terror unit?
LIKE NO HELICOPTER TO SEND A COP OR WHATEVER???
■3.26 pm (11.26pm Melbourne time) Centre of Oslo is rocked by at least one huge explosion close to the government's headquarters and the offices of VG, the country's biggest newspaper. Reports that more blasts are imminent cause panic.
■5.20pm Reports emerge that a man dressed as a police officer has opened fire at a youth camp organised by the ruling Norwegian Labour Party on the island of Utoeya. Soon after, supporters of the Global Jihad terror group claim responsibility for the attack because of Norway's ''occupation of Afghanistan and the abuse of our Prophet Muhammad''.
■6.10pm Police send anti-terror unit to Utoeya. The man arrested after the shooting, later identified as 32-year-old Norwegian national Anders Behring Breivik, is also linked to the bombing in Oslo.