ARE YOU NEW HERE? NOT LOGGED IN? PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO REGISTER FOR AN ACCOUNT AND LOGIN TO REMOVE THIS WINDOW
Welcome to PatsFans.com. Do you have an account? If not - please take a moment to register for our forum and experience a much smoother experience with fewer ads, along with no longer having to see this notification window. Also learn about how you can receive a free Patriots T-Shirt from the Patriots Official ProShop by CLICKING HERE. Please enjoy your stay here, and Go Pats!
Last edited by Mrs.PatsFanInVa; 05-27-2011 at 07:49 AM..
DONATE TO PATSFANS.COM
RECEIVE A FREE PATS T-SHIRT AND SAVE 15% OFF WHEN YOU BUY FROM THE OFFICIAL PROSHOP!
Free T-Shirt & Save 15% Off!
Like Our Site? Please help support our site and server costs by DONATING TO PATSFANS.COM and receive a FREE PATRIOTS T-SHIRT and SAVE 15% off EVERY purchase you make from PatriotsProShop.com. You'll also receive added benefits to your account including Removing All Ads During Your Experience Here At Our Forum.
NEEDED YEARLY SITE DONATIONS: 345 | CURRENT # OF SUBSCRIBED SUPPORTERS: 98
Re: Cause.....Bush Era Tax Cuts - Effect...........
emoney posted this last week so I will repeat what I wrote over there:
Quote:
I have no problem with anyone that wants to make the argument that tax should be increased on "super rich", but the chart in this case is poor argument.
First, the tax cuts didn't only effect "super rich".
Second, the chart is mixing different sides of the equation. Tax is a revenue factor while the others are expenses. It then compares it to a percentage of GDP. It is extremely convoluted and I am not sure what it is supposed to represent other then a big yellow shaded area for shock value. There are so many assumptions that we don't know going into the slide that it is near useless.
Lastly, how is there no expectation for a decrease before 2019? We are in an economic downturn now so I would expect it to go up currently. But any budget expectations that show this going up over the long term have some serious issues. That is what concerns me greatly. Why is the administration expect deficit spending far into the future?
The reality is the cuts were a known quantity and the spending budget should have been adjusted accordingly. I think a better graphical representation would be one where there was a single color at 100% that showed the fault of the debt attributed to policymakers. That's the only thing that is clear to me.
You can ignore the part about the super rich since that wasn't your point at all.
Re: Cause.....Bush Era Tax Cuts - Effect...........
The underlying assumption is that taxes are a zero sum game. That is if you cut taxes it has zero impact on GDP ie the tax base and zero impact on people economic behavior (ie investing vs tax shelters) this is not true.
Simplistic drivel from the left.
The left feels that deficit spending spurs more growth than the cost for borrowing the money and diverting it from private sector use, we can see how that is working out a jobless 'recovery'.
A couple of article exploding the premise and data on this chart.
For more than 80 years, the political left has opposed what they call "tax cuts for the rich." But big cuts in very high tax rates ended up bringing in more revenue to the government in the Coolidge, Kennedy, Reagan and Bush 43 administrations. This included more-- repeat, more-- tax revenue from people in the highest income brackets than before.
That was because high-income people took their money out of tax shelters like municipal bonds and invested where they could get a higher rate of return, after these returns were not being taxed as much. This has happened repeatedly, over so many decades, in administrations of both parties, that you might think this would put an end to the "tax cuts for the rich" demagoguery.
When the tax rate on the highest incomes was 73 percent in 1921, that brought in less tax revenue than after the tax rate was cut to 24 percent in 1925. Why? Because high tax rates that people don't actually pay do not bring in as much hard cash as lower tax rates that they do pay. That's not rocket science.
Then and now, people with the highest incomes have had the greatest flexibility as to where they will put their money. Buying tax-exempt bonds is just one of the many ways that "millionaires and billionaires" avoid paying hard cash to the government, no matter how high the tax rates go.
Most working people don't have the same options. Their taxes have been taken out of their paychecks before they get them.
I would urge people to read the entire articles. The explain in simple terms why the rhetoric of the left fails.
I would also observe it is a dishonest scam. Don't believe me look at the number of dem billionaires who never end up paying their fair share. Buffett, Gates, Soros, Rockefeller, Lautenberger the Kennedy family and so on.
__________________
"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."
Re: Cause.....Bush Era Tax Cuts - Effect...........
This is a poor chart for the reasons laid out by BSR. The problem in general is that growth of spending is outpacing growth of revenues, and with the current entitlement system that is going to continue independent of tax rate. Have a look at the data:
Since 2005 revenues have been steady but spending has increased $1 Trillion Dollars a year (it was $2,472 billion in 2005, it was $3,456 in 2010).
I also would argue that the economic downturn is the reason behind what is categorized here as Bush's tax cuts. In the years when the economy was struggling (2002-3, 2009-10) tax revenues went down. That would have happened no matter what the rate was set at.
Also, the costs of Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001 that I can find total ~1.2 to 1.3 Trillion Dollars. The cost of all bailouts since 2008 that I can find is $3 Trillion Dollars, yet the two appear equal as far as cause. Maybe that is due to future spending? Although with major combat operations essentially over in both places (relative to peak activity), and the fact that it took 10 years to get to 1 trillion, I would doubt that.
At any rate I do agree with one basic premise of the post/chart; that it was/is irresponsible governance to spend so much without a system to make sure it was paid for. Tax cuts are OK but they can't be coupled with massive spending increases, so I'm with you there. I think though that the implied message here that if we only restore tax rates to their Clinton-era levels we'll be rid of our debt problem is folly.
Re: Cause.....Bush Era Tax Cuts - Effect...........
Quote:
Originally Posted by patsfan13
I would also observe it is a dishonest scam. Don't believe me look at the number of dem billionaires who never end up paying their fair share. Buffett, Gates, Soros, Rockefeller, Lautenberger the Kennedy family and so on.
I don't think anyone has ever said that rich dems shouldn't pay their fair share of taxes, either, have they?
Gates and Buffett say, quite publicly, that their taxes and the taxes of anyone even close to their bracket, should be raised.
Re: Cause.....Bush Era Tax Cuts - Effect...........
If Gates and Buffet really believed this they could just not take deductions, of course they pay as little as possible, empty posturing. They are hypocrites, do as I say not as I do.
__________________
"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."
Re: Cause.....Bush Era Tax Cuts - Effect...........
Quote:
Originally Posted by patsfan13
If Gates and Buffet really believed this they could just not take deductions, of course they pay as little as possible, empty posturing. They are hypocrites, do as I say not as I do.
Think about that last statement, PF13....and ask yourself if you, or anyone else you know, would do as they do???
Bill Gates discusses the effort he is leading, along with his wife, Melinda, and their good friend Warren Buffett to persuade America's richest people to sign a public statement committing at least half of their fortunes to charity.
Re: Cause.....Bush Era Tax Cuts - Effect...........
Didn't know the government was a 'charity'. Many of the 'rich' have given money to Charities for a long time. In the case of Gates and Buffett it is mostly after THEY are gone.
They still don't choose to pay the full rate to the government, and btw if they wanted to be genuine they would pay themselves the 'rate; they are recommending for the 'rich' if they want to give what is left over to Charity good for them.
My criticism stands.
__________________
"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."
Re: Cause.....Bush Era Tax Cuts - Effect...........
The US and its penchant for war has been breaking the economic back of this country for quite a while now, particularly Iraq which was based completely on lies and cost something like 3 trillion dollars, and this war was completely unfunded.
None of the figures include the legacy costs for wounder warriors..
Our debt went from $6.4 trillion in March 2003 to $10 trillion in 2008 (before the financial crisis).
__________________ "Being the best doesn't mean you always win. It just means you win more than anyone else".. tweet from Kurt Warner to Tom Brady.
Cause.....Bush Era Tax Cuts - Effect...........
Linear Mode
