What would you do? - Page 7 - New England Patriots Forums

***Patters*** · 04-12-2011, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

Most of want things like getting people and the law off our backs for a while until the day we can get back to our addictive behaviors. We are the most coniving and cunning of all the fast-talkers you'll ever meet. We can lie as a way of life and be fine with it...unless we REALLY want help getting sober.

I agree with your first point very much, but I truly and profoundly disagree with the idea that addicts are that most conniving in any sense.

That's one the messages of the recovery and psychological community that I challenge when I do groups. Addicts are no more conniving than anyone else, except for the fact that they do it more often because of the addiction. The nonaddict is likely to cheat on his taxes, say the meal is delicious when it's not, falsely call in sick, understate a bill, and so on. Also, to the extent addicts are conniving, they're really not cunning or fast-talkers. In fact, I've been surprised at the lameness of the manipulations for the most part! I also think the notion of addicts as supermanipulators flies in the face of helping the low self esteem of many addicts.

PatriotsReign · 04-12-2011, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patters

I agree with your first point very much, but I truly and profoundly disagree with the idea that addicts are that most conniving in any sense.

That's one the messages of the recovery and psychological community that I challenge when I do groups. Addicts are no more conniving than anyone else, except for the fact that they do it more often because of the addiction. The nonaddict is likely to cheat on his taxes, say the meal is delicious when it's not, falsely call in sick, understate a bill, and so on. Also, to the extent addicts are conniving, they're really not cunning or fast-talkers. In fact, I've been surprised at the lameness of the manipulations for the most part! I also think the notion of addicts as supermanipulators flies in the face of helping the low self esteem of many addicts.

Sadly Patters, only those closest to us truly know just how conniving we can be. I'm not knocking alcoholics like myself, I'm just telling you it's the nature of our disease.

Ask any wife (or husband), son or daughter how many times daddy spent the mortgage money on booze & drugs or how many times we missed something important.

Are most humans coniving to some extent? Perhaps we are...but live it as way of life like active alcoholics. I realize we may have differing opinions and there are many even within AA...so it's not a big deal.

My main point was to the average decent person..."don't waste your time trying to help us". I am very sincere in that belief. Let professionals and people in AA help them if they really want it.

***patsfan13*** · 04-12-2011, 07:21 PM

So PR I am guessing that you would agree that if an addict doesn't want to change (ie hits bottom) trying to help them is a waste of time?

***Patters*** · 04-12-2011, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

Sadly Patters, only those closest to us truly know just how conniving we can be. I'm not knocking alcoholics like myself, I'm just telling you it's the nature of our disease.

Ask any wife (or husband), son or daughter how many times daddy spent the mortgage money on booze & drugs or how many times we missed something important.

Are most humans conniving to some extent? Perhaps we are...but live it as way of life like active alcoholics. I realize we may have differing opinions and there are many even within AA...so it's not a big deal.

My main point was to the average decent person..."don't waste your time trying to help us". I am very sincere in that belief. Let professionals and people in AA help them if they really want it.

Actually, PR, what I think is that you don't appreciate the connivingness of nonaddicts. The psychological and recovery communities have created an artificial definition of addicts based on nothing. Give a nonaddict the right opportunity, and s/he'll be just as conniving as any addict. Look at politicians for example. But, I do agree that addicts have to spend more time engaged in manipulation that most of us; it's the nature of the disease.

And I do agree it's a waste of time trying to help addicts who don't want help, sort of like I try to do with conservatives here!

***IcyPatriot*** · 04-12-2011, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

Being a recovering addict & alcoholic, I can tell you that your intentions are good. I mean that sincerely. But very few of us alcoholics REALLY want your help to get sober.

Most of want things like getting people and the law off our backs for a while until the day we can get back to our addictive behaviors. We are the most coniving and cunning of all the fast-talkers you'll ever meet. We can lie as a way of life and be fine with it...unless we REALLY want help getting sober.

So, please don't waste your time trying to help us. At least until we are desparate and at the end of our rope. You can't trust us until we prove we are once again trust-worthy citizens.

I'm just trying to tell you that helping addicts & alcoholics isn't like trying to help someone who lost their job, their home or a loved one. Your efforts are worthwhile with those types of situations. But untless you're a fellow member of AA or like Patters who dedicates his career to helping them...it's not worth your honest efforts to try to help. I think that's why AA was formed.

Frame it ........... well said.

PatriotsReign · 04-12-2011, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patters

Actually, PR, what I think is that you don't appreciate the connivingness of nonaddicts. The psychological and recovery communities have created an artificial definition of addicts based on nothing. Give a nonaddict the right opportunity, and s/he'll be just as conniving as any addict. Look at politicians for example. But, I do agree that addicts have to spend more time engaged in manipulation that most of us; it's the nature of the disease.

And I do agree it's a waste of time trying to help addicts who don't want help, sort of like I try to do with conservatives here!

Sounds like we agree on some things and not so on others...not bad.

PatriotsReign · 04-13-2011, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patsfan13

So PR I am guessing that you would agree that if an addict doesn't want to change (ie hits bottom) trying to help them is a waste of time?

Yes, that is what my experience has been. Especially if somone is very close to an alcolohic, I would suggest you try not to get involved with helping them EVEN if they truly want to change. If they don't want to change, no one should try to help them.

Most alcoholics want to change everything but they're drinking. They wrongfully believe "If only I had a better job, a different wife or if I just moved out of this place, I'll be alright" But the reality is, the ONLY way they'll "be alright" is if they stop drinking one day at a time for the rest of their lives.

And the strange thing is, stopping drinking is actually the easiest & simplest part of re-building an alcoholic's life.

***Patters*** · 04-13-2011, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

Yes, that is what my experience has been. Especially if somone is very close to an alcolohic, I would suggest you try not to get involved with helping them EVEN if they truly want to change. If they don't want to change, no one should try to help them.

At the same time many of the theories of addiction argue that the addict may seek help when a new force is applied that interrupts the addiction system that runs in their brain. Examples of these types of forces include the courts, relationships, jobs. The addict may well think of changing course if his life gets seriously disrupted. A friend or family could possibly intervene by doing less than they would do for another friend or even terminating a friendship. One very experienced counselor I know who worked with older adolescents said to me, "Sometimes the only way a parent can help a child is to be prepared to let that child die," and as harsh as that is, I think there's some truth to it.

PatriotsReign · 04-13-2011, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patters

At the same time many of the theories of addiction argue that the addict may seek help when a new force is applied that interrupts the addiction system that runs in their brain. Examples of these types of forces include the courts, relationships, jobs. The addict may well think of changing course if his life gets seriously disrupted. A friend or family could possibly intervene by doing less than they would do for another friend or even terminating a friendship. One very experienced counselor I know who worked with older adolescents said to me, "Sometimes the only way a parent can help a child is to be prepared to let that child die," and as harsh as that is, I think there's some truth to it.

Before I got help, I got fired from my job. Maybe with some alcoholics, that would be enough to get help, but not for me. I saw it as a relief of sorts in that I could now drink without responsibility. I went on a 9 month bender before I ended up in a detox.

Ugly memories, for sure...but not something I ever want to forget. Now, unlike most people, I can use that when things seems tough and say to myself, "the problems I have now are nothing to what I had back then".

You're right about addiction being a life or death crisis/decision. And when I talk to people who don't believe it's a disease, I ask them, "why else would someone NOT choose life?"