PatriotsReign

Honestly Patters, that was a very foolish thing to say! Darryl's response was HIS response...conservative or liberal has nothing to do with it. Not every thought, belief or response can/must or should be categorized at "conservative or liberal". In this case, we all know Darryl isn't conservative, so his response can't be conservative...and it wasn't.

We are all responsible for our own behavior. Addiction is a disease, but we're still responsible for our actions.

Your question can not possibly be answered by anyone here. It's a hypothetical situation so how would you expect anyone to answer it if we've never been in that situation? We can't.

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"No one walking this earth knows what is truly righteous"

PatriotsReign

From my personal experience with alcoholism and addiction recovery, a person is only able to get sober when they are willing "to do anything to stay sober". It must be the motivating factor driving their lives. If somone is NOT willing to do anything to stay sober, no power on this earth will keep them sober.

So, to your point about "my brother's keeper"...it would be useless to try to help somone who isn't willing AND it would be the wrong thing to do from any perspective, biblical or otherwise.

We can only help those who are willing to help themselves.

The best thing to do when someone is not willing to do anything to stay sober is to walk away. Some die so that others may live...it's sad, but it's the truth. And there are many who need help, so better to spend our time with those who actually want help.

If this young man Patters is referring to is willing to do anything to stay sober (and breaking the "no sex" house rule may indicate he is not), then he'll be ok. People in AA will give him all the help he needs if he is solidly grounded in an AA group.

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"No one walking this earth knows what is truly righteous"

Mrs.PatsFanInVa

As far as I can tell the "system" is horribly inefficient.

I am acquainted with one situation in which a youg man, in his mid twenties, was going through some tough times. He'd lost his job, his girlfiend, his apartment and his car. He attempted suicide and was taken to a local ER. While there he admitted to an alcohol problem and was admitted to a local psych/rehab hospital as a 72 hour "involuntary police hold" as a danger to himself or others.

He needed help, knew he needed help and was willing to cooperate with anyone who was willing to give him help. After 2 days he was given a court hearing which was held in the hospital to discuss what he could do to get better. The options were A) stay in the rehab program for 30 day, either voluntarily or involuntarily, depending on the judge's decision, B) seek outpatient treatment or 3) be found not in need of further assistance. He, and his parent's were opting for A, his counselors were opting for "A," his physician was opting for "A."

All of them testified. The judge asked one question and one question only. The question was, "Do you have health insurance?" The answer was, "No."

The "verdict?"

"The court no longer finds you to be a danger to yourself or to others and capable of being realeased with no need for mandatory treatment."

His counselor frantically gave him 2 names and numbers of free clinics in the area and he was discharged within 20 minutes.

When the local clinics were called he was informed that there was a waiting list of 6 months to a year.

When his parents took him to a private psych doctor the doctor informed them that he did not take "private pay" patients because he felt too "pressured " by money constraints to be effective. The second doctor said he did not take patients who'd been previously hospitalized because, without insurance, it would be too hard to admit the patient should he need admittance again.

So, yeah, right, how hard can it be to get help when you need it?

DarrylS

A professional walks away from these choices and allows the client to make his or her own decision.. that is where your role ends and he has to figure it out.. to continue involvement will only create dependency.

It is not conservative or liberal( that is a dumb allegation), it is personal responsibility.. the way you frame your whole argument is disabling and denies personal responsibility of the person involved..

I did a lot of victimization work in the past, and discussions of the abuse and neglect has its place, but no matter what a person is responsible for what he or she does. What is more helpful is helping a person grow and develop despite their hardships..

Your attitude is an enabling knee jerk response that will only serve to create a dependency for the client and will not allow him to grow away from these types of systems..

To frame is as a political statement is flat out stupid and only shows your lack of understanding of the spectrum and array of various types of therapy...

William Glasser Institute - Reality Therapy

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"Being the best doesn't mean you always win. It just means you win more than anyone else".. tweet from Kurt Warner to Tom Brady.

Patters

Of course we're all responsible for our behaviors. In fact, when I've run groups, I talk a lot about personal responsibility, but what does personal responsibility mean in the face of disaster? How would you exercise personal responsibility if you were homeless, had no money, and no resources? Rely on taxpayer funded services? Steal? Prostitute yourself? Live in the streets and scrounge for food out of garbage cans?

As far as the question goes, of course you can answer it. If you were in a desperate situation, what might you do? What should we expect these people to do given that our society, if anything, because of conservative tax policies, has given them fewer options. I would think someone who opposes increased funding of social services would have some better answer than the meaningful phrase "personal responsibility." I suppose you also like Nancy Reagan's "Just say no" approach to addiction, too. It's about as pointless and emptyheaded as is the phrase personal responsibility, if it's not coupled with an action plan.

PatsFanInVa

Wow again, thanks guys. Well aside from all the facts about relationships throwing in a monkey wrench, I will say that if you buy into that and get sober for a month, you're a damn sight more likely to make a year, if that's the only way you're going to er um become intimate with someone again.

PatriotsReign

I actually answered your question in my post after the one you quoted, here...

One important point here is that AA has done more to help addicts/alchoholics that all the efforts of the medical, psychiatric and gov't programs combined. No one can help an addict more than another addict who has learned to live sober.

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"No one walking this earth knows what is truly righteous"

Patters

A professional certainly doesn't walk away from the choices, but helps the individual explore and weigh the choices and provides a certain level of practical help. For instance, you can't easily get into a shelter or other programs without a referral. Walking away is not professional at all in my opinion.

Personal responsibility is not liberal or conservative, but it's meaningless and pointless in terms of being a solution. It's a fine phrase for preachers and politicians, but it carries no value in the face of crisis. It's a philosophical point, not a solution.

Obviously, that's why the options I presented were options that the person in crisis could choose.

I really don't see your point Darryl. Nothing in my attitude is about enabling the person, since the person obviously has to help himself. I realize you would go up to the homeless person and toss out phrases like personal responsibility, but frankly I think that tone of yours is condescending and naive. Frankly, I think the down and out have far more personal responsibility than many of the middle class who are vastly more dependent on government services (roads, fire, police, water, construction codes, etc.) than are the very poor.

Do you know what therapy is? It does not feed, house, or clothe someone. It is not a quick fix. The problem I cited required a quick fix, and frankly Glasser favored government programs to help people in crisis, so it sounds to me like you looked up "personal responsibility" and "therapy" and came up with his name. His views have nothing to do with the problem my client faced, and the problem my client faced was certainly political in nature because his solution lay in either violating norms (crime or homelessness) or turning to taxpayer funded solutions.

DarrylS

Do not know what I am talking about?? was involved with youth services for more 40 years.. Master of Social Work from Boston University.. at one time was licensed as a private therapist, for while was certified as a sex therapist, have supervised staff of 35 people including a staff of 7 professionals, have written for professional journals, staged conferences, consulted in various settings, and have been called on to testify as a witness in state and federal court.. on and on..

No I do not know what therapy is??? Guess you know better.. when you start a scenario with a description of horrific and violent abuse that is enabling..

If you do not see yourself as enabling, need to spend some time with a professional supervisor.. this has nothing to do with politics, it has to do with a set of standards and beliefs that are time tested and work..

__________________
"Being the best doesn't mean you always win. It just means you win more than anyone else".. tweet from Kurt Warner to Tom Brady.

IcyPatriot

I'd give him a ride to the middle of the Tobin bridge.