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"...What the hell are you talking about? I never ever said that revenue generated by a business "belongs to the government". Where do you get that?..."
I get it from your claims that taxpayers are footing the bill when businesses incur business expenses, and that ordinary business expenses are a problem for the government / taxpayer.
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"...As you wrote here several times, while many deducted business expenses are relevant and germane, there are many cases of abuses with business expenses deductions. Vacation flights to visit friends and family that include 15 minutes of small talk regarding possible (wink, wink) business dealings, baseball game outings with friends where potential "business" may be mentioned during half an inning. It is rampant. Is it not always difficult to ascertain what are relevant deductible expenses and what are merely living high off the hog with the costs shared with the American taxpayer (go to any stadium built in the past 20 years, look past the glass windows and you'll see what I mean).
Entertainment and Dining is the deduction I originally mentioned as the eggregious boondoggle. You decided to try to widen the conversation to travel and office expenses. There are certainly much boondoggle there, but it is nowhere near as clear as with entertainment and dining..."
Right, and when I've also pointed out that many of these kinds of expenses are legitimate and asked you where you draw the line, you've responded with a view that goes well beyond the boondoggles into what virtually any person would consider a legitimate business expense. (For example, the flight to meet with a client or prospective client)
I'm assuming there's some sort of underlying principle to your pov, but I don't yet know what it is.
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"...The TeaParty rightfully protests "Welfare Queens in Designer Jeans", but I'm willing to bet far more taxpayer money is lost on corporate zinfandel and golf deductions. It should ALL be on the table, not just the teachers and poor schoolchildren."
I agree about it all being on the table, but your wine and golf examples are more examples of (i) this point of view of the $ belonging to the taxpayer -- sorry, it's not the taxpayers $, and (ii) things that may not be illegitimate.
If a potential client golfs, spending 4 hours on a golf course may be a far better marketing expenditure than an ad. Personally, I don't like schmoozing, and I generally don't even like sales, but if I can increase the chances of getting a million dollar client from getting to know a guy over golf and a couple beers, I'd be a fool not to take that opportunity to build the relationship.
Now, if you want to say that I shouldn't be able to write off a flight to Cabo and weekend of golf and sun with friends who are in a related business and our girlfriends/wives, I completely agree -- but that doesn't make all golf an illegitimate expense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmessy
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We'll just have to agree to disagree, then, on the necessity for taxpayers to subsidize corporate golf outings, wine tastings and sporting event hospitality tents.
When you write - - "....but if I can increase the chances of getting a million dollar client from getting to know a guy over golf and a couple beers, I'd be a fool not to take that opportunity to build the relationship...." - - - you are being naive in not understanding exactly how many times every hour that "expenditure" is deducted in "meetings" between friends and family who are then put down in the ledger as "prospective clients".
Most concerned taxpayers complain when lobbyists buy politicians with gifts and junkets.. It is bribery plain and simple. You can put as much lipstick on that pig as you want, but it is what it is. If the businesses want to do that, then go ahead, just don't demand the TAXPAYER fund part of it. In my view, Entertainment and Dining should be a discretionary, non-deductible expense.
How is it subsidized by taxpayers? It's not the taxpayers money. There is no cost assumed by the taxpayer what so ever. There is no government credit or voucher given to a business. It's an expense. You also assume that the money Chico Corp might spend shmoozing a potential million dollar account on a golf course, wouldn't somehow be spent elsewhere. As a business owner, isn't it up to me to determine what expenses are in my companies best interests? For example, if I buy 4 season tickets to the Patriots, and take the top 3 employees in weekly sales to the game, isn't that something that's aimed at increasing productivity for my business? I don't disagree that there are abuses, but you seem to be of the opinion that a companies money isn't actually a companies money.
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
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First of all, why even have a TARP? Why lend money we don't have to foreign banks? Second, at the very least, those corrupt banks will be paying TARP back. Will all these foreignors I see at Market Basket be doing the same? I didn't think so. Apparently though, it's somehow ok to blow up the dependency on others because TARP happened.
How is it subsidized by taxpayers? It's not the taxpayers money. There is no cost assumed by the taxpayer what so ever. There is no government credit or voucher given to a business. It's an expense. You also assume that the money Chico Corp might spend shmoozing a potential million dollar account on a golf course, wouldn't somehow be spent elsewhere. As a business owner, isn't it up to me to determine what expenses are in my companies best interests? For example, if I buy 4 season tickets to the Patriots, and take the top 3 employees in weekly sales to the game, isn't that something that's aimed at increasing productivity for my business? I don't disagree that there are abuses, but you seem to be of the opinion that a companies money isn't actually a companies money.
Of course, a company's money belongs to the company and they can spend it whatever way they want. However, entertainment and dining should not be tax deductible. Simple as that.
Your example is absurd. OF COURSE the boss can take the top employees out to a Pats game or to the US Open, that's his/her choice. It doesn't have to be tax deductible, however. The abuses that you and Chico seem to wave of as insignificant (asides like "...of course there are abuses...") I'm here to tell you are in the tens of billions per year range in our economy.
I'm interested in Paul Ryan's plan today - - with all the cuts announced, he simultaneously announces a corporate tax decrease to the 25% level. I'd be inclined to actually support this if there are simultaneously eliminations of the "Corporate Lifestyle Deductions".
Lower the taxes and eliminate the loopholes.
__________________
"They (Patriots) may be the greatest team ever" - Chris Mortenson, January 18, 2005 on espn.com
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
Of course, a company's money belongs to the company and they can spend it whatever way they want. However, entertainment and dining should not be tax deductible. Simple as that.
Your example is absurd. OF COURSE the boss can take the top employees out to a Pats game or to the US Open, that's his/her choice. It doesn't have to be tax deductible, however. The abuses that you and Chico seem to wave of as insignificant (asides like "...of course there are abuses...") I'm here to tell you are in the tens of billions per year range in our economy.
I'm interested in Paul Ryan's plan today - - with all the cuts announced, he simultaneously announces a corporate tax decrease to the 25% level. I'd be inclined to actually support this if there are simultaneously eliminations of the "Corporate Lifestyle Deductions".
Lower the taxes and eliminate the loopholes.
But, Whoaaa there Nelly...it's NOT as "simple as that"!
First off, we don't want to exclude employee travel, internet, cell phone, auto, meal and other various expenses from being tax deductable.
But business entertainment expenses? Maybe, but let's take a closer look first.
Your ideas can become a slippery-slope with unintended results. Let's say I'm travelling with several others in my company and one of picks up the tab for dinner. Maybe we get some beer & wine as well. All of that currently is and SHOULD remain tax deductable.
They are a cost of doing business.
Now, regarding your examples of abuses of the "business entertainment" current tax code...that's a different story all together. Various companies hold charity and other events as part of doing business. For example, CVS holds their annual "CVS Charity Classic" golf tournament. It is good for their business and the various charities they help. At the end of the event, they hold a dinner for which companies (like the one I work for) all attend.
To me, these are all valid business expenses. Where the slippery-slope comes in is "How do we distinguish between a charity golf event and one that is between 2 friends in the business?"
I hate seeing or hearing people say "I'll just write this off" when we both know it's not a true business expense. Say for example, a friend of mine who owns his own company wants to pay for my golf and then write it off when I have nothing to do with his business. That is clearly wrong, but it's the exception.
If I take a real client out for dinner, to a Patriots game or golfing, the fact is, it's a true cost of doing business. If you want to elimate these write-offs, then you'll also have to exclude charity events. And if you do that, I guarantee you companies won't spend the money to help these charities if they can't write it off.
you can't have it both ways....
Now, you'll have people who say, "If it's something FUN, then it can't be a business expense". But intelligent people know that's just not true. If my company wants to have a team-building meeting at a resort, then it's clear, it's a 100% business expense. At that event, we have choices of whether to play golf, tennis, massage, etc.. Can you or anyone else explain how/why that should not be a business expense?
Because, in the end, you can have fun at the expense of your company and your company should be able include that in their cost of doing business.
__________________ "No one walking this earth knows what is truly righteous"
Last edited by PatriotsReign; 04-05-2011 at 02:06 PM..
Of course, a company's money belongs to the company and they can spend it whatever way they want. However, entertainment and dining should not be tax deductible. Simple as that.
Your example is absurd. OF COURSE the boss can take the top employees out to a Pats game or to the US Open, that's his/her choice. It doesn't have to be tax deductible, however. The abuses that you and Chico seem to wave of as insignificant (asides like "...of course there are abuses...") I'm here to tell you are in the tens of billions per year range in our economy.
I'm interested in Paul Ryan's plan today - - with all the cuts announced, he simultaneously announces a corporate tax decrease to the 25% level. I'd be inclined to actually support this if there are simultaneously eliminations of the "Corporate Lifestyle Deductions".
Lower the taxes and eliminate the loopholes.
Who said (or even implied) they are insignificant? There has been no discussion of the extent of abuses.
You haven't made any argument as to why it's not OK -- in your opinion -- to take a potential client to dinner but it is OK to spend on advertising.
The fact that you think travel to meet with potential clients also shouldn't be treated as an expense of the business further muddies your argument here.
Of course, a company's money belongs to the company and they can spend it whatever way they want. However, entertainment and dining should not be tax deductible. Simple as that.
Your example is absurd. OF COURSE the boss can take the top employees out to a Pats game or to the US Open, that's his/her choice. It doesn't have to be tax deductible, however. The abuses that you and Chico seem to wave of as insignificant (asides like "...of course there are abuses...") I'm here to tell you are in the tens of billions per year range in our economy.
I'm interested in Paul Ryan's plan today - - with all the cuts announced, he simultaneously announces a corporate tax decrease to the 25% level. I'd be inclined to actually support this if there are simultaneously eliminations of the "Corporate Lifestyle Deductions".
Lower the taxes and eliminate the loopholes.
Why is the example absurd? So a boss can take his employees to a game under the notion that it serves his businesses best interest, but that same boss can't take a prospective client to that same game if it does the same? What if the client/employees hate football, but love golf? Is it ok to have a monthly trip to Pebble Beach for the best sales people, or to take the CEO of Chico Corp if it means securing an 8 figure account? The bottom line is that it should generally be up to the people who run the company, to determine how best to invest in the companies interests. It's an expense like any other. A "cost of doing business" if you will. You also seem to think that any money spent on entertainment would automatically make it's way into the pockets of the government which is eroneous.
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
Who said (or even implied) they are insignificant? There has been no discussion of the extent of abuses.
You haven't made any argument as to why it's not OK -- in your opinion -- to take a potential client to dinner but it is OK to spend on advertising.
The fact that you think travel to meet with potential clients also shouldn't be treated as an expense of the business further muddies your argument here.
Sounds to me like shmessy doesn't believe people who are successful should reap any fringe benefits of that success. Of course anyone who travels for a living knows it sucks. You don't get to "visit and the see the world, etc." and it's nothing but a pain in the arse.
The good thing about travelling a lot for business is that we get all those reward points for free travel and hotels...maybe shmessy wants that to be taxed as well, I don't know. But the truth is, those things can't and won't be taxed because it would hurt the economy.
__________________ "No one walking this earth knows what is truly righteous"
Should be brought up that GE, Exxon, Bank Of America in this nation of takers all paid no taxes.. guess they had a lot to write off.
Whoaaa there Nelly, that's simply not true.
All companies pay payroll taxes and match what their employees pay into social security, don't they?
Imagine if we didn't have capitalism and everyone had just about the same amount of everything?
Imagine a world where no one cared what his/her neighbor had because everyone gets the same...no jealousy, no envy
People say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one....
What an ugly place that would be!
__________________ "No one walking this earth knows what is truly righteous"
Last edited by PatriotsReign; 04-05-2011 at 02:58 PM..
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