The US Army Kill Team... Life is cheap in the war zone - New England Patriots Forums

***DarrylS*** · 03-28-2011, 05:03 AM

Once again the side effects of war raises its ugly head, you will not find this on Fox News, CNN, Washington Times or Washington Post.. once again the Rolling Stone does a very good expose on how soldiers can get out of control and just kill... guess this will not go very far on winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan People..

"I'm living with war everyday
I'm living with war in my heart every day
I'm living with war right now

And when the dawn breaks I see my fellow man
And on the flat-screen we kill and we're killed again
And when the night falls, I pray for peace
Try to remember peace" Neil Young.

The Kill Team | Rolling Stone Politics

Quote:

Among the men of Bravo Company, the notion of killing an Afghan civilian had been the subject of countless conversations, during lunchtime chats and late-night bull sessions. For weeks, they had weighed the ethics of bagging "savages" and debated the probability of getting caught. Some of them agonized over the idea; others were gung-ho from the start. But not long after the New Year, as winter descended on the arid plains of Kandahar Province, they agreed to stop talking and actually pull the trigger.

After the killing, the soldiers involved in Mudin's death were not disciplined or punished in any way. Emboldened, the platoon went on a shooting spree over the next four months that claimed the lives of at least three more innocent civilians. When the killings finally became public last summer, the Army moved aggressively to frame the incidents as the work of a "rogue unit" operating completely on its own, without the knowledge of its superiors. Military prosecutors swiftly charged five low-ranking soldiers with murder, and the Pentagon clamped down on any information about the killings. Soldiers in Bravo Company were barred from giving interviews, and lawyers for the accused say their clients faced harsh treatment if they spoke to the press, including solitary confinement. No officers were charged.

***Harry Boy*** · 03-28-2011, 05:29 AM

Where are all those Bush Era War Protesters, very quiet out there in Hollywood.

Is Beautiful Obama any different than Goofy Bush they both try to walk through locked doors.

Cindy Sheehan, please come back, we need you, bring Sean Penn with you.

Dixie Chicks please sing an Anti War Song.

Why Is Gitmo Still Open?

Is G Bush secretly telling Obama how to be President, do they talk on the phone while we all sleep, it looks that way, how long will it be before Obama goes out in the country somewhere and starts "Clearing Brush"

STOP THE WARS (bush had 2 obama has 3)

Mrs.PatsFanInVa · 03-28-2011, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrylS

Once again the side effects of war raises its ugly head, you will not find this on Fox News, CNN, Washington Times or Washington Post.. once again the Rolling Stone does a very good expose on how soldiers can get out of control and just kill... guess this will not go very far on winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan People..

Actually it's been on MSNBC all morning.

What surprises me is that people are surprised. What do we think is going to happen? What do we think that young kids, and that's pretty much what these soldiers are, are going to come up with when so much of the rhetoric they hear from people back home is how dangerous Muslims are, how evil Islam is, how they are trying to overtake our own country, implement Sharia Law in The United States, kill innocent Americans, etc., etc.?

Is it a terrible thing what these soldiers have done? Certainly it is. But why is it surprising? Or even unexpected?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, one of these soldiers has a much respected, much beloved father or uncle or neighbor who thinks and speaks like Harry Boy does? Or he's spent years hearing a respected elder saying, "I'm proud to be an infidel," or one who advocates, loudly, that America should have a Massad, a "kill team," as you will, which is brave enough and smart enough to start taking terrorists out, one by one? Someone who advocates "out-savaging" the savages?

They've spent their formative years hearing debates about whether waterboarding is torture - and the upshot seems to be that it is not. Or even if it is, it's ok in certain situations and in those certain situations, it should even be encouraged. Torture, as a means to an end, is acceptable in their minds. So, once it's acceptable for others, higher up in their government, to do it, it becomes a tool which they, too, feel permitted to use - should circumstances warrant it, of course.....but what doesn't a war zone situation warrant?

We have asked for this, we have encouraged it, and we're going to have to deal with it - and starting by accepting some of the blame for it might be a good starting place.

***DarrylS*** · 03-28-2011, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs.PatsFanInVa

Actually it's been on MSNBC all morning.

What surprises me is that people are surprised. What do we think is going to happen? What do we think that young kids, and that's pretty much what these soldiers are, are going to come up with when so much of the rhetoric they hear from people back home is how dangerous Muslims are, how evil Islam is, how they are trying to overtake our own country, implement Sharia Law in The United States, kill innocent Americans, etc., etc.?

Is it a terrible thing what these soldiers have done? Certainly it is. But why is it surprising? Or even unexpected?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, one of these soldiers has a much respected, much beloved father or uncle or neighbor who thinks and speaks like Harry Boy does? Or he's spent years hearing a respected elder saying, "I'm proud to be an infidel," or one who advocates, loudly, that America should have a Massad, a "kill team," as you will, which is brave enough and smart enough to start taking terrorists out, one by one? Someone who advocates "out-savaging" the savages?

They've spent their formative years hearing debates about whether waterboarding is torture - and the upshot seems to be that it is not. Or even if it is, it's ok in certain situations and in those certain situations, it should even be encouraged. Torture, as a means to an end, is acceptable in their minds. So, once it's acceptable for others, higher up in their government, to do it, it becomes a tool which they, too, feel permitted to use - should circumstances warrant it, of course.....but what doesn't a war zone situation warrant?

We have asked for this, we have encouraged it, and we're going to have to deal with it - and starting by accepting some of the blame for it might be a good starting place.

Pretty much agree.. also believe that the overall desensitization towards violence/war has had an impact, whether it be through the media or video games.. life has become very cheap in that parallel universe.

Life often imitates "art"...

My nephew is an illustrator for THQ (Kaos Studios) that recently came out with "Homefront", Red Dawn on steroids, and we often have discussions about the video game's impact on this overall desentization...

Of course he disagrees, however I point to a youtube promotion about this games that speaks to the avoidance of "massacre fatigue" in this video game, that makes my point quite well. We do not want kids to become fatigued by killling while playing video games..

Military madness has ruined my country...

Mrs.PatsFanInVa · 03-28-2011, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrylS

Pretty much agree.. also believe that the overall desensitization towards violence/war has had an impact, whether it be through the media or video games.. life has become very cheap in that parallel universe.

I think it goes even deeper than that although I agree that we are a society which promotes violence at every opportunity.

We punish kindergarden kids who point their thumb and draw back their index finger but we are busy passing laws which make it acceptable for just about anyone to buy a gun, load it to the max and carry it openly into bars, schools and town hall meetings. The pretend gun is no good bt the real gun is not only our constitutional right, but our duty.

We speak, quite cavalierly, about targets, crosshairs and 2nd ammendment remedies. We carry signs reminding people that next time, we'll bring our guns.

Millions of citizens, just like Harry Boy here, rail constantly about taking to the streets, "letting the riots begin," and "fighting to the death," the "liberal pigs," and the mainstream media.

Why shouldn't our soldiers, our kids, feel justified, even patriotic, for doing exactly what old men like Harry Boy seem to want them to do?

We expect them to have the judgement, the good sense, to distinguish a "real" terrorist from an innocent Afghani citizen but we've already established, by our own vocal advocation of profiling at airports, busstops, train stations, that we, ourselves, cannot distinguish one from the other. We've also established, in many cases, that we really don't care much, anyhow. Recently an American Muslim, a citizen, was taken off of an airplane because a stewardess misunderstood her "I've got to go," phone conversation - the general consensus here was , "better safe than sorry," and they bet that it (being suspected for being Muslim) happened to her frequently and that she was probably used to it - or needed to get used to it.

Why do we expect our soldiers, whose entire lives (all 18 - 15 years of it) have been spent being exposed to this kind of attitude, this kind of mindset, to feel or act any differently?

The Brandon Five · 03-28-2011, 08:03 AM

It might all be because of Harry Boy, but then again, maybe some of what they have witnessed in country has had an impact.

Baqubah Update: 05 July 2007

Quote:

Since my reporting of the massacre at the al Hamari village, many readers at home have asked how anyone can know that al Qaeda actually performed the massacre. The question is a very good one, and one that I posed from the first hour to Iraqis and Americans while trying to ascertain facts about the killings.

No one can claim with certainty that it was al Qaeda, but the Iraqis here seem convinced of it. At a meeting today in Baqubah one Iraqi official I spoke with framed the al Qaeda infiltration and influence in the province. Although he spoke freely before a group of Iraqi and American commanders, including Staff Major General Abdul Kareem al Robai who commands Iraqi forces in Diyala, and LTC Fred Johnson, the deputy commander of 3-2 Stryker Brigade Combat Team, the Iraqi official asked that I withhold his identity from publication. His opinion, shared by others present, is that al Qaeda came to Baqubah and united many of the otherwise independent criminal gangs.

Speaking through an American interpreter, Lieutenant David Wallach who is a native Arabic speaker, the Iraqi official related how al Qaeda united these gangs who then became absorbed into “al Qaeda.” They recruited boys born during the years 1991, 92 and 93 who were each given weapons, including pistols, a bicycle and a phone (with phone cards paid) and a salary of $100 per month, all courtesy of al Qaeda. These boys were used for kidnapping, torturing and murdering people.

At first, he said, they would only target Shia, but over time the new al Qaeda directed attacks against Sunni, and then anyone who thought differently. The official reported that on a couple of occasions in Baqubah, al Qaeda invited to lunch families they wanted to convert to their way of thinking. In each instance, the family had a boy, he said, who was about 11 years old. As LT David Wallach interpreted the man’s words, I saw Wallach go blank and silent. He stopped interpreting for a moment. I asked Wallach, “What did he say?” Wallach said that at these luncheons, the families were sat down to eat. And then their boy was brought in with his mouth stuffed. The boy had been baked. Al Qaeda served the boy to his family.

Stuff like that might tend to get one's dander up.

***DarrylS*** · 03-28-2011, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brandon Five

It might all be because of Harry Boy, but then again, maybe some of what they have witnessed in country has had an impact.

Baqubah Update: 05 July 2007

Stuff like that might tend to get one's dander up.

So in your view massacre of non combatants is ok, because of something that happened in Iraq...

The Brandon Five · 03-28-2011, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrylS

So in your view massacre of non combatants is ok, because of something that happened in Iraq...

No, in my mind the only thing that affects people in a war zone is not their own prejudices. They witness some pretty brutal stuff, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan where the battlefields are often civilian areas (because al-Qaeda are cowards who like to hide behind women and children).

***DarrylS*** · 03-28-2011, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brandon Five

No, in my mind the only thing that affects people in a war zone is not their own prejudices. They witness some pretty brutal stuff, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan where the battlefields are often civilian areas (because al-Qaeda are cowards who like to hide behind women and children).

So you did not read the article, and are just making assumptions...

So you would not have prosecuted these guys???

They were bored, that is why they did it.. they killed a teenager and planted a grenade.

The Brandon Five · 03-28-2011, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs.PatsFanInVa

What surprises me is that people are surprised. What do we think is going to happen? What do we think that young kids, and that's pretty much what these soldiers are, are going to come up with when so much of the rhetoric they hear from people back home is how dangerous Muslims are, how evil Islam is, how they are trying to overtake our own country, implement Sharia Law in The United States, kill innocent Americans, etc., etc.?

Is it a terrible thing what these soldiers have done? Certainly it is. But why is it surprising? Or even unexpected?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, one of these soldiers has a much respected, much beloved father or uncle or neighbor who thinks and speaks like Harry Boy does? Or he's spent years hearing a respected elder saying, "I'm proud to be an infidel," or one who advocates, loudly, that America should have a Massad, a "kill team," as you will, which is brave enough and smart enough to start taking terrorists out, one by one? Someone who advocates "out-savaging" the savages?

They've spent their formative years hearing debates about whether waterboarding is torture - and the upshot seems to be that it is not. Or even if it is, it's ok in certain situations and in those certain situations, it should even be encouraged. Torture, as a means to an end, is acceptable in their minds. So, once it's acceptable for others, higher up in their government, to do it, it becomes a tool which they, too, feel permitted to use - should circumstances warrant it, of course.....but what doesn't a war zone situation warrant?

We have asked for this, we have encouraged it, and we're going to have to deal with it - and starting by accepting some of the blame for it might be a good starting place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrylS

So you did not read the article, and are just making assumptions...

So you would not have prosecuted these guys???

They were bored, that is why they did it.. they killed a teenager and planted a grenade.

So having a racist uncle leads to boredom which leads to war crimes. Got it.