First they came for Cartman and I didn't speak - Page 4 - New England Patriots Forums

PatriotsReign · 03-07-2011, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicowalker

I think some folks in Iraq and Afghanistan might disagree with you...

I don't think this is a matter of "judging" anybody, just pointing out that perspective matters. It's easy to say terrorism is bad. And of course we think it, because we would be the victim of terrorist attacks and not traditional military attacks.

But if you were an Iraqi whose home and family were destoyed by American troops, maybe you wouldn't view it as terrorism if you in turn attacked Americans -- maybe you'd view it as the only form of retribution you could get.

I have no problem with us fighting the wars we decide are necessary. But I do think that as a nation there's a huge inconsistency between how dismissive we are of "collateral damage," or how we view American troops as noble and brave, yet how quick we are to assert that "terrorists" must be evil.

(Now let the attacks start...)

I actually do have a problem with us fighting any war Chico. I believe the only wars we should fight are in defense of our nation or in certain cases, help our allies.

Iraqi's can't be grateful we ousted Saddam Hussein and also want to attack the USA...just can't have both ways. It's not just American citizens who decide what is acceptable and what isn't, it's what the majority of the world believes. Like I said, let's have a world vote on it.

It's just like our system where nothing is black or white, so we vote on issues and collectively decide what is right and what is unacceptable.

Now, maybe YOU care what Iraqi's believe, I don't.

The Brandon Five · 03-07-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicowalker

I think some folks in Iraq and Afghanistan might disagree with you...

I don't think this is a matter of "judging" anybody, just pointing out that perspective matters. It's easy to say terrorism is bad. And of course we think it, because we would be the victim of terrorist attacks and not traditional military attacks.

But if you were an Iraqi whose home and family were destoyed by American troops, maybe you wouldn't view it as terrorism if you in turn attacked Americans -- maybe you'd view it as the only form of retribution you could get.

I have no problem with us fighting the wars we decide are necessary. But I do think that as a nation there's a huge inconsistency between how dismissive we are of "collateral damage," or how we view American troops as noble and brave, yet how quick we are to assert that "terrorists" must be evil.

(Now let the attacks start...)

To me the difference is that we consider civilians to be "collateral damage", i.e. not the intended targets. For terrorists the civilians are the targets.

Furthermore, our soldiers are in uniform. An enemy combatant can spot them and know that they are a U.S. soldier. Since al-Qaeda and their ilk do not they can blend in with the civilian population. This makes it much more challenging for our troops to identify who is a combatant and who is a civilian. That is why there needs to be a penalty for being an unlawful enemy combatant.

atomdomb · 03-07-2011, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs.PatsFanInVa

Just the one most people remember.

Here's some of the forgotten ones. A very incomplete list.

John Bayard Britton
David Gunn
James Barnett
June Barnett
Hector Zevallos
Rosalee Zevallos
Alice Hawthorne
Robert Sanderson
Emily Lyons.
George Woodward,

Do you possibly have anything in last decade. This was a dumb list to put up.

Here are the terror attacks from the last week tied to Islam. Not widespread my @ss.

2011.03.06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Islamists shoot a 23-year-old man to death in front of his mother.
2011.03.06 Thailand Pattani 1 4 Muslim militants open fire on a market, killing a guard and seriously injuring four patrons.
2011.03.06 Yemen Zinjibar 2 0 Islamic militia murder two men, one at a vegetable market.
2011.03.06 Iraq Basra 8 12 'Insurgents' attach a bomb to a passenger bus, killing eight innocents.
2011.03.06 Afghanistan Paktika 12 5 Five children are among a dozen civilians who bleed out following a fundamentalist roadside bombing.
2011.03.05 Thailand Pattani 1 2 A Buddhist monk is shot through the head in a Muslim drive-by. Two others are injured.
2011.03.05 Iraq Khalis 2 2 Terrorists burst into a cafe and shoot dead two patrons.
2011.03.05 Pakistan Karachi 2 0 A cleric and his son are murdered by Religion of Peace rivals.
2011.03.04 Pakistan Nowshera 10 37 Sunnis detonate a powerful bomb at a Sufi mosque during Friday prayers, taking down ten worshippers.
2011.03.04 Egypt Sol 2 0 A Muslim mob, angry over a relationship between a Muslim girl and Christian boy, kills the two fathers and burns down a church.
2011.03.04 Pakistan Danda 1 0 Terrorists shoot a man to death outside a cafe for the crime of insulting Islam two years earlier.
2011.03.03 Pakistan Hangu 9 31 Women and children are among the casualties when a suicide car bomber detonates along a city street.
2011.03.03 Iraq Haditha 8 10 A suicide bomber wades into a crowd at a bank and sends eight customers to Allah.
2011.03.02 Iraq Ramadi 1 3 One victims bleeds out after a suicide bomber attacks a rival mosque.
2011.03.02 Iraq Mosul 1 0 Mujahideen bombers blow up a home, killing a civilian.
2011.03.02 Iraq Baghdad 1 20 A sectarian bombing leaves one person dead.
2011.03.02 Pakistan Karachi 1 0 A seminary teacher is shot to death by sectarian rivals.
2011.03.02 Germany Frankfurt 2 2 A gunmen yells 'Allah Akbar' and opens fire on unarmed US soldiers on a bus, killing two.
2011.03.02 Pakistan Islamabad 1 1 A Catholic cabinet minister is brutally shot to death in his car after being accused of blasphemy.
2011.03.01 Pakistan Miranshah 4 0 Four villagers are abducted and executed in captivity by Sunni fundamentalists.
2011.03.01 Pakistan Mardan 1 19 One student is killed when the Taliban throw a grenade into a girl's school.
2011.03.01 Pakistan Pakhtunkhwa 2 0 Islamists are suspected of shooting a farmer and one other person to death.
2011.03.01 Pakistan Mohmand 3 1 Three tribesman are killed by a Taliban landmine.
2011.03.01 Yemen Abyan 2 11 An ambulance driver is among two people slain in an al-Qaeda ambush.
2011.03.01 Nigeria Maiduguri 1 0 Boko Haram gunmen murder an off-duty cop in his home.
2011.03.01 Nigeria Maiduguri 1 0 A guard at a church is gunned down in an Islamist drive-by.
2011.03.01 Pakistan Bara 1 0 Religion of Peace proponents behead a civilian and dump his head and torso in separate areas.

PatriotsReign · 03-07-2011, 03:26 PM

GREAT post a.b.!!! Sums up the reality of Islamic terrorist and their threat to innocent people around the globe.

What I do not understand is why a single person walking upon this planet would even attempt to defend terrorism. It's not only NOT understandable, it's murder.

Any attempt to rationalize or justify terrorism is exactly the same as trying to "understand" Hitler. Maybe he was an abused child, I don't know. But I do know that even if he was, I don't give a ratsass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomdomb

Do you possibly have anything in last decade. This was a dumb list to put up.

Here are the terror attacks from the last week tied to Islam. Not widespread my @ss.

2011.03.06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Islamists shoot a 23-year-old man to death in front of his mother.
2011.03.06 Thailand Pattani 1 4 Muslim militants open fire on a market, killing a guard and seriously injuring four patrons.
2011.03.06 Yemen Zinjibar 2 0 Islamic militia murder two men, one at a vegetable market.
2011.03.06 Iraq Basra 8 12 'Insurgents' attach a bomb to a passenger bus, killing eight innocents.
2011.03.06 Afghanistan Paktika 12 5 Five children are among a dozen civilians who bleed out following a fundamentalist roadside bombing.
2011.03.05 Thailand Pattani 1 2 A Buddhist monk is shot through the head in a Muslim drive-by. Two others are injured.
2011.03.05 Iraq Khalis 2 2 Terrorists burst into a cafe and shoot dead two patrons.
2011.03.05 Pakistan Karachi 2 0 A cleric and his son are murdered by Religion of Peace rivals.
2011.03.04 Pakistan Nowshera 10 37 Sunnis detonate a powerful bomb at a Sufi mosque during Friday prayers, taking down ten worshippers.
2011.03.04 Egypt Sol 2 0 A Muslim mob, angry over a relationship between a Muslim girl and Christian boy, kills the two fathers and burns down a church.
2011.03.04 Pakistan Danda 1 0 Terrorists shoot a man to death outside a cafe for the crime of insulting Islam two years earlier.
2011.03.03 Pakistan Hangu 9 31 Women and children are among the casualties when a suicide car bomber detonates along a city street.
2011.03.03 Iraq Haditha 8 10 A suicide bomber wades into a crowd at a bank and sends eight customers to Allah.
2011.03.02 Iraq Ramadi 1 3 One victims bleeds out after a suicide bomber attacks a rival mosque.
2011.03.02 Iraq Mosul 1 0 Mujahideen bombers blow up a home, killing a civilian.
2011.03.02 Iraq Baghdad 1 20 A sectarian bombing leaves one person dead.
2011.03.02 Pakistan Karachi 1 0 A seminary teacher is shot to death by sectarian rivals.
2011.03.02 Germany Frankfurt 2 2 A gunmen yells 'Allah Akbar' and opens fire on unarmed US soldiers on a bus, killing two.
2011.03.02 Pakistan Islamabad 1 1 A Catholic cabinet minister is brutally shot to death in his car after being accused of blasphemy.
2011.03.01 Pakistan Miranshah 4 0 Four villagers are abducted and executed in captivity by Sunni fundamentalists.
2011.03.01 Pakistan Mardan 1 19 One student is killed when the Taliban throw a grenade into a girl's school.
2011.03.01 Pakistan Pakhtunkhwa 2 0 Islamists are suspected of shooting a farmer and one other person to death.
2011.03.01 Pakistan Mohmand 3 1 Three tribesman are killed by a Taliban landmine.
2011.03.01 Yemen Abyan 2 11 An ambulance driver is among two people slain in an al-Qaeda ambush.
2011.03.01 Nigeria Maiduguri 1 0 Boko Haram gunmen murder an off-duty cop in his home.
2011.03.01 Nigeria Maiduguri 1 0 A guard at a church is gunned down in an Islamist drive-by.
2011.03.01 Pakistan Bara 1 0 Religion of Peace proponents behead a civilian and dump his head and torso in separate areas.

chicowalker · 03-07-2011, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

I actually do have a problem with us fighting any war Chico. I believe the only wars we should fight are in defense of our nation or in certain cases, help our allies....

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

...Iraqi's can't be grateful we ousted Saddam Hussein and also want to attack the USA...just can't have both ways. It's not just American citizens who decide what is acceptable and what isn't, it's what the majority of the world believes. Like I said, let's have a world vote on it....

What I was saying has nothing to do with popular opinion.

As for Iraqis, they're not some monolithic body. Just like Americans have varying viewpoints, so do Iraqis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

...Now, maybe YOU care what Iraqi's believe, I don't.

Weren't you recently saying something about all of humanity mattering, not just countries?

Sure I care what Iraqis believe -- why wouldn't I?

chicowalker · 03-07-2011, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brandon Five

To me the difference is that we consider civilians to be "collateral damage", i.e. not the intended targets. For terrorists the civilians are the targets.

Furthermore, our soldiers are in uniform. An enemy combatant can spot them and know that they are a U.S. soldier. Since al-Qaeda and their ilk do not they can blend in with the civilian population. This makes it much more challenging for our troops to identify who is a combatant and who is a civilian. That is why there needs to be a penalty for being an unlawful enemy combatant.

Did I say there's no difference?

Of course there are differences. What I'm saying is that, if your family is killed by troops, you just might not give a ***** that they were wearing a uniform.

We shouldn't be surprised if some people don't play by "the rules" when those rules favor us and other nations with substantial military forces.

PatriotsReign · 03-07-2011, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicowalker

I agree.

What I was saying has nothing to do with popular opinion.

As for Iraqis, they're not some monolithic body. Just like Americans have varying viewpoints, so do Iraqis.

Weren't you recently saying something about all of humanity mattering, not just countries?

Sure I care what Iraqis believe -- why wouldn't I?

I said that relative to racism in America. However, I do care what Iraqi's think about some things, but not about terrorism.

There is no rational means of defending terrorism, period. It's civilian against civilian murder.

Do you see terrorism as acceptable? If the rationale for terrorist is their fundamental belief in Islam (killing the infidel/unbelievers), how can it be defended? It just not possible.

If you want to rationalize it based upon those who have had loved ones die by Americans, I can understand that, but not accept it. But no one can defend a belief that calls for the execution/murder of non-believers.

Do you agree with the above paragraph?

The Brandon Five · 03-07-2011, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicowalker

Did I say there's no difference?

Is this a new forum rule? If you don't say something others can't offer their own opinion? You're awfully churlish lately.

Quote:

Of course there are differences. What I'm saying is that, if your family is killed by troops, you just might not give a ***** that they were wearing a uniform.

We shouldn't be surprised if some people don't play by "the rules" when those rules favor us and other nations with substantial military forces.

Terrorists waging war against our troops while out of uniform is one issue. The other is that they wage war against civilians by specifically targeting them.

chicowalker · 03-07-2011, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

I said that relative to racism in America. ...

(OK, good, I wasn't imagining things)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriotsReign

...There is no rational means of defending terrorism, period. It's civilian against civilian murder.

Do you see terrorism as acceptable? If the rationale for terrorist is their fundamental belief in Islam (killing the infidel/unbelievers), how can it be defended? It just not possible.

If you want to rationalize it based upon those who have had loved ones die by Americans, I can understand that, but not accept it. But no one can defend a belief that calls for the execution/murder of non-believers.

Do you agree with the above paragraph?

I completely agree w/regard to the form that you described re. Muslim Extremists. They're murderers, nothing more, and would partake in genocide if they were able.

(In the case of people who think they're defending their nation or their families, etc., I don't like it, but I understand it.)

chicowalker · 03-07-2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brandon Five

Is this a new forum rule? If you don't say something others can't offer their own opinion?...

Of course you can -- I thought you were implying I didn't think there's a difference. Apparently you weren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brandon Five

...You're awfully churlish lately.....

I'm often churlish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brandon Five

...Terrorists waging war against our troops while out of uniform is one issue. The other is that they wage war against civilians by specifically targeting them.

yup