DarrylS

My skepticism about all things gov't has been confirmed with the release of info relating to the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which has not been confirmed that it never happened. Not to say the most recent incident with Iran did not happen, but need to be careful as there should not be a rush to judgement. Saw the video, could have happened anywhere and could have been staged. If the gov't really wants to have a go with Iran it will happen.

BTW this report from the NAS, was not picked up by any of the right wing or left wing newspapers or media.. guess we were all distracted by the NH stuff.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...c957JypHhNTMxQ
The report was released by the National Security Agency, responsible for much of the United States' codebreaking and eavesdropping work, in response to a "mandatory declassification" request, the Federation of American Scientists (FAS) said Monday.

But he said that probably the "most historically significant feature" of the declassified report was the retelling of the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident.

That was a reported North Vietnamese attack on American destroyers that helped lead to president Lyndon Johnson's sharp escalation of American forces in Vietnam.

The author of the report "demonstrates that not only is it not true, as (then US) secretary of defense Robert McNamara told Congress, that the evidence of an attack was 'unimpeachable,' but that to the contrary, a review of the classified signals intelligence proves that 'no attack happened that night,'" FAS said in a statement.

"What this study demonstrated is that the available intelligence shows that there was no attack. It's a dramatic reversal of the historical record," Aftergood said.

"There were previous indications of this but this is the first time we have seen the complete study," he said.

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PressCoverage

<crickets>...

...

...

...



<gear shift sound>

obligatory Bush League response: "it doesn't matter... the ends justified the means, just as today"

FreeTedWilliams

The crickets are becuase this story is about LBJ and JFK.

Both of whom, have been dust for decades now.............

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Real World

So because the Gulf of Tonkin, some 4+ decades ago, was BS, then everything that happens today has to be seen as BS too. The M&M mentality in this place is truly a tragedy. I think it's wise to have doubts, and understand that anything is possible, but to hold the mindset that everything is untrue because the government says it happened, is silly.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Turk

I think what is being suggested is that there is a precedence and that because of it, we should be aware if not skeptical.

patsfan13

Actually if you read the post of the confrontation, the first response of some was to ASSUME it had been staged for some covert purpose, that goes well beyond skepticism.

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reflexblue

I question Everything, authoritarian figures say. That way I'm doing my due diligence.

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Turk

Originally Posted by Turk
I think what is being suggested is that there is a precedence and that because of it, we should be aware if not skeptical.




Post of the confrontation?

Here are the first few words of the original post:
"My skepticism about all things gov't..."

What exactly is your position here?
That our government / military is Godly, that we have never resorted to this type of thing?
That it is silly to question?
That we should trust and obey, blindly?

Real World

Precedence? The Gulf of Tonkin then stands as an absolute in determining that everything the government says is BS first, and the truth only when proven so beyond a reasonable doubt. Hmmm...how'd that work out with the 15 kidnapped sailors? I guess that isn't precedence though. If what's being suggested is that you should always leave room to doubt, then fine. However, what we get in here from too many, is tinfoil hats, gloves, underwear, sweaters, socks, ear muffs, pins, wife beaters, and even pant suits (that one's for you HB! ).

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

wistahpatsfan

No it isn't
Think of it this way: Why would you believe anything the government says (other than to preserve your own sanity knowing that the government controls so much of our lives)? Skepticism is normal and required since Nixon and even before, as Tonkin clearly demonstrates. You think Colin Powell trusts the government anymore? How about the troops in Iraq that are being pressed into longer tours with less time stateside? What about Congressmen who promised "change" to get elected?

You can't be serious when you suggest (I think) that your default reaction is to trust government first and question only when there are obvious doubts. That's dangerous and silly.