World Population of Muslims Doubling - Page 2 - New England Patriots Forums

PatsFanInVa · 01-27-2011, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wistahpatsfan

Really? "Qualilty, my boy, not quantity."?? That sounds like some sort of superior race-ish which is strange coming from a ummm...Jew. I'll assume you were being sarcastic.

Assumption correct. Jews aren't a race in the first place, though certainly we are an ethnic group. But that's a minor nit.

Now then, I'll assume that you're not in earnest in suggesting that Jews could not conceivably evolve a chauvinistic attitude, or that it is more inappropriate for Jews to do so than for any other group of people to do so.

You may say that Jews have negative historical experience with that sort of thing; but your statement can also be read to mean "Well I can understand Germans thinking that about themselves. But Jews?"

A final note: I am in fact in earnest that Jews have been able to succeed despite a small population worldwide. The idiotic "fear of losing a population race" angle here makes zero sense - less sense to me than to those whose cultural heritage is Christian or Moslem. After all, both groups will be very large, and to the extent that population confers a certain amount of sway, both will be powerful.

I have yet to see a Protestant on Patsfans claim that they are imperilled by the far higher worldwide Catholic population (and notably higher birthrate, if memory serves.) I don't see anybody up in arms over Hindu birthrates.

PFnV

wistahpatsfan · 01-27-2011, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsFanInVa

Assumption correct. Jews aren't a race in the first place, though certainly we are an ethnic group. But that's a minor nit.

Now then, I'll assume that you're not in earnest in suggesting that Jews could not conceivably evolve a chauvinistic attitude, or that it is more inappropriate for Jews to do so than for any other group of people to do so.

You may say that Jews have negative historical experience with that sort of thing; but your statement can also be read to mean "Well I can understand Germans thinking that about themselves. But Jews?"

A final note: I am in fact in earnest that Jews have been able to succeed despite a small population worldwide. The idiotic "fear of losing a population race" angle here makes zero sense - less sense to me than to those whose cultural heritage is Christian or Moslem. After all, both groups will be very large, and to the extent that population confers a certain amount of sway, both will be powerful.

I have yet to see a Protestant on Patsfans claim that they are imperilled by the far higher worldwide Catholic population (and notably higher birthrate, if memory serves.) I don't see anybody up in arms over Hindu birthrates.

PFnV

Oh yeah? How about the Irish?! Now that's a small ethnicity that was almost killed off by the Saxon scum that nearly starved them to death, but fortunately believed in having as many kids possible once they got to America and Australia (there's that link to immigration to wide-open spaces we were talking about in the Bachman thread...nice, huh?). They do pretty well.

And of course I believe Jews can develop a chauvinistic attitude. Jeeziz! They call themselves the Chosen People fakrissakes! I give your tribe one thing (among many other props)...you definitely have no self-esteem issue considering the shyte you've been drug through. If you did you'd have overcompensation issues like getting drunk a lot and getting into fistfights, taking dangerous jobs like firefighting, construction, and police work and ultimately wading into the vile world of politics to get attention.

Oh, and don't forget the commies in China. Thank Santa they have that enforced family planning or we'd all be over-run by Buddists and athiests!

THERE GOES THE NEIGHBORHOOD!

***IcyPatriot*** · 01-27-2011, 08:55 PM

I could feign being a Muslim as long as nobody knows I don't do the prayer thing.

The Brandon Five · 01-27-2011, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsFanInVa

I think you mean "double their population."

From the fact that their proportionate population will rise from 20% to 25%, the obvious conclusion is that non-Moslem populations are also growing at close to the same pace.

I have no idea what the equivalent numbers would be for Hindus, but I would imagine they would be high, given the absence in India of a China-like control on population growth. Once again, I am anything but worried. Confessional-group bean-counting partakes way too much of "monolith" thinking. The Moslems I know and have known have no particularly dangerous plans, and none vociferously protested the exposed faces of women, whether Moslem or non-Moslem.

Come on dude, you know 90% of Muslims behave pretty much like 90% of Christians, and you know the 10% of Christian crazies can cause you issues just like the 10% of Moslems who are nuts.

As a Jew I look at the behavior of Christian Europe over a millennium, and when I hear this "oh no! Too many Moslems!" stuff, it cracks me up.

It's more like "too many extremists," and unfortunately, they find fertile ground in any religious community.

pFnV

I meant the Jews.

Right, so there is no difference between Christians and Muslims, which is why there are equal numbers of Jews in "Christian" and "Muslim" countries, right?

Real World · 01-27-2011, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brandon Five

This, coupled with birth rates below replacement in many non-Muslim populations should make for an interesting world.

The future belongs to those who show up for it. For those calling for self-extinction in the name of reducing population growth in order to "save the planet": into whose hands are you delivering stewardship of the planet? Your ideas will die with you.

That's an excellent point. As one group fails to grow in size, the other grows exponentially. The mathematical course suggests that at some point, the group growing at the higher rate, will likely be the dominant figure in the world. Obviously it will be a long time till that happens, if it happens at all, but it is a good point none the less.

***DarrylS*** · 01-28-2011, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Boy

Right now in the world when the bomb goes off we pretty much know who did it and it ain't the christian.

(please not timothy mcveigh again)

A convenient distraction that muddles the thought process of the right.. how about Eric Rudolph?? Gerald Loughner?? The Hutaree Movement??

PatsFanInVa · 01-28-2011, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brandon Five

I meant the Jews.

Right, so there is no difference between Christians and Muslims, which is why there are equal numbers of Jews in "Christian" and "Muslim" countries, right?

There are two runaway leaders in the world in Jewish population: the U.S. and Israel. The U.S. is a secular country by law and custom, despite some nasty trends to the contrary and despite the shrill cries of a sizable minority on the theocratic right. Israel, also by and large a secular society, has neither a Muslim nor Christian identity, but a Jewish one.

The reason there is an Israel is that Christian Europe made it clear over centuries that they have no use for the Jewish people. The establishment of Israel coincided with pan-Arab sentiment, occasioning migration from neighboring Arab states (the so-called "Second Aliyah," the first being the immigration of the remnants of European Jewry.)

It's comical to me that Christians (and pro-Christian, otherwise "secular" people in the West, who nonetheless take sides in this faux "holy war,") believe that Jews must all be rooting for their new Crusade. (After all, all the rest of the Crusades worked out so well for us, right?)

Taking 2011 as a snapshot of history, you can look around and say "oh yes, Christian nations are so much less anti-semitic (by and large) than Muslim nations," using those confessional-group tags to indicate the preponderance of the religions in nations' populations, rather than the necessity of a theocracy.

What you cannot do is make a valid case that this is inherent to the fact of Muslim or Christian ideology, given historical precedent.

Far more Jews over the centuries have died at the hands of Christians, in the name of Christianity, than at the hands of Muslims. You can throw in Arab Nationalism etc., and compare with what European Christians did in the name of Aryan national socialism, and the comparison gets worse.

If you are not aware of Christian theological anti-semitism, because of the obscurring grotesquerie of the Holocaust, do some reading.

We've learned that either population is capable of anti-semitic turns, in whatever guise, and that it makes very little sense to think one or the other should be held up as trustworthy to "look after" a religious minority in their midsts.

Indeed, the principle is best illustrated by the nations where Jews did decide to settle -- one secular by constitution (the U.S.), and the other strongly secular, where the state is aligned with Judaism rather than Christianity or Islam (much to the chagrin of those who espouse leftist anti-zionism, because only Jews should not establish such a state, as opposed to every other world religion.)

PFnV

The Brandon Five · 01-28-2011, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsFanInVa

There are two runaway leaders in the world in Jewish population: the U.S. and Israel. The U.S. is a secular country by law and custom, despite some nasty trends to the contrary and despite the shrill cries of a sizable minority on the theocratic right. Israel, also by and large a secular society, has neither a Muslim nor Christian identity, but a Jewish one.

The reason there is an Israel is that Christian Europe made it clear over centuries that they have no use for the Jewish people. The establishment of Israel coincided with pan-Arab sentiment, occasioning migration from neighboring Arab states (the so-called "Second Aliyah," the first being the immigration of the remnants of European Jewry.)

It's comical to me that Christians (and pro-Christian, otherwise "secular" people in the West, who nonetheless take sides in this faux "holy war,") believe that Jews must all be rooting for their new Crusade. (After all, all the rest of the Crusades worked out so well for us, right?)

Taking 2011 as a snapshot of history, you can look around and say "oh yes, Christian nations are so much less anti-semitic (by and large) than Muslim nations," using those confessional-group tags to indicate the preponderance of the religions in nations' populations, rather than the necessity of a theocracy.

What you cannot do is make a valid case that this is inherent to the fact of Muslim or Christian ideology, given historical precedent.

Far more Jews over the centuries have died at the hands of Christians, in the name of Christianity, than at the hands of Muslims. You can throw in Arab Nationalism etc., and compare with what European Christians did in the name of Aryan national socialism, and the comparison gets worse.

If you are not aware of Christian theological anti-semitism, because of the obscurring grotesquerie of the Holocaust, do some reading.

We've learned that either population is capable of anti-semitic turns, in whatever guise, and that it makes very little sense to think one or the other should be held up as trustworthy to "look after" a religious minority in their midsts.

Indeed, the principle is best illustrated by the nations where Jews did decide to settle -- one secular by constitution (the U.S.), and the other strongly secular, where the state is aligned with Judaism rather than Christianity or Islam (much to the chagrin of those who espouse leftist anti-zionism, because only Jews should not establish such a state, as opposed to every other world religion.)

PFnV

Right, the U.S. is more secular than Europe. Whatever gets you through the night.

The Brandon Five · 01-28-2011, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsFanInVa

The reason there is an Israel is that Christian Europe made it clear over centuries that they have no use for the Jewish people. The establishment of Israel coincided with pan-Arab sentiment, occasioning migration from neighboring Arab states (the so-called "Second Aliyah," the first being the immigration of the remnants of European Jewry.)

Right and we know that the Holocaust was driven by the teachings of Jesus. Brilliant.

Quote:

It's comical to me that Christians (and pro-Christian, otherwise "secular" people in the West, who nonetheless take sides in this faux "holy war,") believe that Jews must all be rooting for their new Crusade. (After all, all the rest of the Crusades worked out so well for us, right?)

Who is rooting for a new Crusades?

Quote:

Taking 2011 as a snapshot of history, you can look around and say "oh yes, Christian nations are so much less anti-semitic (by and large) than Muslim nations," using those confessional-group tags to indicate the preponderance of the religions in nations' populations, rather than the necessity of a theocracy.

What you cannot do is make a valid case that this is inherent to the fact of Muslim or Christian ideology, given historical precedent.

I think the modern environment is a little more relevant when discussing what is going to happen in the next twenty-five years.

Quote:

Far more Jews over the centuries have died at the hands of Christians, in the name of Christianity, than at the hands of Muslims. You can throw in Arab Nationalism etc., and compare with what European Christians did in the name of Aryan national socialism, and the comparison gets worse.

If you are not aware of Christian theological anti-semitism, because of the obscurring grotesquerie of the Holocaust, do some reading.

Being a Christian, I am unaware of anti-semitism in any church I have ever been in or in any sermon, lesson or discussion. If you want me to go hunting for it, I think that belies how widespread that is.

Quote:

We've learned that either population is capable of anti-semitic turns, in whatever guise, and that it makes very little sense to think one or the other should be held up as trustworthy to "look after" a religious minority in their midsts.

Indeed, the principle is best illustrated by the nations where Jews did decide to settle -- one secular by constitution (the U.S.), and the other strongly secular, where the state is aligned with Judaism rather than Christianity or Islam (much to the chagrin of those who espouse leftist anti-zionism, because only Jews should not establish such a state, as opposed to every other world religion.)

We'll see how that works out when the voting public in some of those "secular" countries represent a fervently religious population with very different values.

It's fine if you think that there will be no ill effects from such changes, I am not making any argument about any specific impact. To suggest that there will be no effect whatsoever is just silly.

Mrs.PatsFanInVa · 01-28-2011, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brandon Five

Being a Christian, I am unaware of anti-semitism in any church I have ever been in or in any sermon, lesson or discussion. If you want me to go hunting for it, I think that belies how widespread that is.

Up until 1960 there was a prayer said in the Catholic Church on Good Friday of Holy Week which went like this:

Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Let us pray. Let us kneel. [pause for silent prayer] Arise. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.

The 2008 prayer now reads:

Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. (Let us pray. Kneel. Rise.) Almighty and eternal God, who want that all men be saved and come to the recognition of the truth, propitiously grant that even as the fullness of the peoples enters Thy Church, all Israel be saved. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.

Which still insists that The Jews are wrong and The Christians are right in their respective beliefs.

In 2005, Pope Benedict said that the church remained committed to “the need to overcome past prejudices, misunderstandings, indifference and the language of contempt and hostility [and to continue] the Jewish-Christian dialogue...."

which certainly admits that there has been a long and fairly recent history of anti-semitism in The Catholic Church.

Good Friday Prayer for the Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sarah Palin, surely a spokeperson for Evangelical Christians, attends a church which has sponsored sermons by the founder of "Jews for Jesus," David Brickner, where he stated that the killing of Jews in Israel by Palestinians was a "judgement from God," brought about by the Jews failure to recognize Jesus as the one true Saviour.

"Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. It's very real. When [Brickner's son] was in Jerusalem he was there to witness some of that judgment, some of that conflict, when a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment — you can't miss it."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13098.html

Billy Graham has made anti-Semitic remarks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham