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The former agent, who said he participated in the Abu Zubayda interrogation but not his waterboarding, said the CIA decided to waterboard the al Qaeda operative only after he was "wholly uncooperative" for weeks and refused to answer questions.
All that changed -- and Zubayda reportedly had a divine revelation -- after 30 to 35 seconds of waterboarding, Kiriakou said he learned from the CIA agents who performed the technique.
The terror suspect, who is being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, reportedly gave up information that indirectly led to the the 2003 raid in Pakistan yielding the arrest of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, an alleged planner of the September 11, 2001, attacks, Kiriakou said
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"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits". - Albert Einstein
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I was watching the movie The Punisher last night with John Travolta and Thomas Jane, and was thinking about torture and waterboarding. In the movie, Jane strings up this little wieny dude upside down from the ceiling, and lights up a blow torch. He starts asking the dude to tell him some info, to which he refuses. So Jane goes into this talk, as he adjusts the flame on the torch, about how it's 2,000 degrees, and is so hot that he won't feel it burn his flesh. He'll just smell cooking flesh, and then will feel an ice cold sensation that means he's burning straight through his body. The guy doesn't budge, so Jane moves the flame toward the mans back, and acts as if he's buring it, while he actually burns a piece of steak that's on the stool behind him. The steak obviously gives off the smell of buring flesh, and he then took a popsicle and touched on the guys back for the cold sensation. The dude starts screaming, smelling the meet, knowing the flame, and feeling the cold, that he starts blabing like a little kid. Now, I know, just a movie, but what it made me wonder was whether or not that constitutes actual torture? Has anyone seen the movie scene in question? I wondered if that was similar to what waterboarding is like. No actual physical danger, but certain traumatic fear. It's an interesting thought none the less.
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
I was watching the movie The Punisher last night with John Travolta and Thomas Jane, and was thinking about torture and waterboarding. In the movie, Jane strings up this little wieny dude upside down from the ceiling, and lights up a blow torch. He starts asking the dude to tell him some info, to which he refuses. So Jane goes into this talk, as he adjusts the flame on the torch, about how it's 2,000 degrees, and is so hot that he won't feel it burn his flesh. He'll just smell cooking flesh, and then will feel an ice cold sensation that means he's burning straight through his body. The guy doesn't budge, so Jane moves the flame toward the mans back, and acts as if he's buring it, while he actually burns a piece of steak that's on the stool behind him. The steak obviously gives off the smell of buring flesh, and he then took a popsicle and touched on the guys back for the cold sensation. The dude starts screaming, smelling the meet, knowing the flame, and feeling the cold, that he starts blabing like a little kid. Now, I know, just a movie, but what it made me wonder was whether or not that constitutes actual torture? Has anyone seen the movie scene in question? I wondered if that was similar to what waterboarding is like. No actual physical danger, but certain traumatic fear. It's an interesting thought none the less.
That seems like a decent analogy... the fear of dying or of pain is probably a very effective interrogation technique... or tricking someone into thinking something is happening to him which is worse than what is really happening to him...
I've seen the movie and am familiar with water-boarding. I would say it's a pretty good analogy in that there is no damage being done. However in the movie it is the mans mind that is making the reaction whereas in water-boarding it is the body that is reacting and telling the mind that it's drowning.
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"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits". - Albert Einstein
One other note: our military (although i am sure they will never admit it) actually use water-boarding as a training technique. Several friends have gone through it in their seal training.....it helps them (or weeds them out) adapt to the sensation of drowning so that they can control their reaction....this way they don't panic if they are ever drowning during an op.
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"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits". - Albert Einstein
In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.
Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.
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"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.
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With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).
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"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits". - Albert Einstein
Individual lawmakers' recollections of the early briefings varied dramatically, but officials present during the meetings described the reaction as mostly quiet acquiescence, if not outright support. "Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing," said Goss, who chaired the House intelligence committee from 1997 to 2004 and then served as CIA director from 2004 to 2006. "And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement."
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The attitude was, 'We don't care what you do to those guys as long as you get the information you need to protect the American people.' "
Very interesting
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"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits". - Albert Einstein
Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
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