Do you think a school should give 11 year old birth control without parental consent? - Page 5 - New England Patriots Forums

***BelichickFan*** · 10-22-2007, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patters

I think that's how it works. Of course, when you're talking about what a school can tell a kid that's trickier because it's hard to say where exactly the line should be drawn. For instance, can a school teach kids about the dangers of disease, including sexually transmitted ones? Should a school teach children about what inappropriate behavior is (by a stranger, parent, teacher, or fellow student)? If the school suspects many of the students are sexually active, can it do anything, or should it pretend the problem isn't there?

I don't want the school teaching anything other than math, english, physics, chemistry, biology and non partisan history.

The rest they should STFO.

PF1996 · 10-22-2007, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmyPatsFan

Lol...you have no idea what side of the political spectrum I am on.....yes you are right it is a parental rights issue. The poll question which you continued your rant on was .....read subject. Answer the question. Maine law is Maine law.....I think it is wrong. I do not think an 11 year can make an informed/responsible decision. As a parent, like parents in 24 other states, I would be correct.

It is never beneficial to have an 11 year old pregnant...I agree. We differ on whether birth control is the correct way to prevent it. I do not agree on putting a chemical in my child's body without parental consent. That is my bottom line.

Your brain cell comment was an attempt at an insult.....nice try to deflect it.

I'm pretty certain you're a righty for these reasons:

1. your reliance on emotion, rather than facts, to support your position

2. your refusal to answer pointed questions related to the topic

3. your reliance on insults when you can't refute a point you dislike

So, are you or are you not a righty

The poll question is a distortion of the facts in this case, which isn't surprising given the poll's originator. The school isn't "giving out" birth control pills, there IS "parental consent"..i.e. the SIGNED FORM and the confidentiality is an extension of state law, NOT a creation of the SCHOOL. Therefore an honest poll question would be: "should a sexually active 11 yr old be allowed to request a birth control prescription from a school's health center and should that 11 year old be able to prevent her parents from knowing about her request?. This question actually fits the FACTS but it doesn't fit RW's purpose (to inflame the righties' feeble minds and drum up support after he was beaten like a drum on the other thread on this topic)

You do not think an 11 year old can make "an informed/responsible decision" to have sex, or to use protection if having sex???

If the first, it really doesn't matter because one cannot legally prevent an 11 year old from having sex. It's also irrelevant because the policy doesn't encourage 11 year olds to have sex, it simply provides protection for those 11 or 12 or 13...year olds who do decide to have sex.

As for the second, I would think that a decision by a sexually active person to use birth control IS "informed and responsible".

Sorry, you being "a parent", doesn't make you "correct". Your "correctness" is determined by whether you present valid facts/logic to support your position, not by the random fact that you're a parent. So far, you have presented neither fact nor logic to support your position.

This isn't a case of preventing any random 11 year old from getting pregnant. It's a case of preventing SEXUALLY ACTIVE 11 year olds from getting pregnant. Do tell, how you would suggest we prevent SEXUALLY ACTIVE 11 year olds (or any sexually active indivudal for that matter) from getting pregnant without the use of the most secure form of birth control.

When did I try to "deflect" my "brain cells comment"? Did I deny saying it? I simply corrected you as to whom it was directed. It wasn't an insult...it was an appropriate description for those who are too dense to grasp the simple fact that this particular case is a CHILD versus PARENT issue, not SCHOOL versus PARENT.

ArmyPatsFan · 10-22-2007, 11:29 PM

1. Where is the emotion you are referring to? I am using my perspective as a parent to form my opinion. I think you are wrong (on some of this) and so do 12 members on this poll as well as 24 states.

2 I answered your questions. You may not like the answer...but oh well.

3. There is no insult in my last post...I responded to yours and your general attitude.

4. No

5. Since we are playing this game....are you a parent? Answer the pointed question...or be the same you accused me of being.

An 11 year old already has made a poor irresponsible decision to have sex....and continuing to have sex by making the responsible decision to get birth control. Let parent/s fix the root problem....lack of self esteem, pressure, abuse from boyfriend, peer pressure. I agree that pregnant 11 year olds are not good for the 11 year old, parent, society, etc...

Again the bottom line ifor me is putting something in my childs body without my knowledge or approval...

Does the parent of an 11 year old have the right to know what chemical is being given to their child that has potential side effects like... increase cancer risk, blood clots, liver cancer, weight gain, high blood pressure?

fleabassist1 · 10-22-2007, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PF1996

I'm pretty certain you're a righty for these reasons:

1. your reliance on emotion, rather than facts, to support your position

2. your refusal to answer pointed questions related to the topic

3. your reliance on insults when you can't refute a point you dislike

So, are you or are you not a righty

Sounds like left wing tactics to me...

PF1996 · 10-23-2007, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmyPatsFan

1. Where is the emotion you are referring to? I am using my perspective as a parent to form my opinion. I think you are wrong (on some of this) and so do 12 members on this poll as well as 24 states.

2 I answered your questions. You may not like the answer...but oh well.

3. There is no insult in my last post...I responded to yours and your general attitude.

4. No

5. Since we are playing this game....are you a parent? Answer the pointed question...or be the same you accused me of being.

An 11 year old already has made a poor irresponsible decision to have sex....and continuing to have sex by making the responsible decision to get birth control. Let parent/s fix the root problem....lack of self esteem, pressure, abuse from boyfriend, peer pressure. I agree that pregnant 11 year olds are not good for the 11 year old, parent, society, etc...

Again the bottom line ifor me is putting something in my childs body without my knowledge or approval...

Does the parent of an 11 year old have the right to know what chemical is being given to their child that has potential side effects like... increase cancer risk, blood clots, liver cancer, weight gain, high blood pressure?

"Your perspective" is your "emotion". It isn't FACTS. If your "perspective" includes valid facts, do present them. Otherwise, it's nothing more than your "feeling as a parent", which is an emotion, not a relevant and objective FACT.

Typical righty, probably because your type typically lacks facts to support your position, to use the idiotic tactic "my opinion is valid because a lot of people agree with me". As I've already explained to several other righties on this board....validity ISN'T determined by POPULARITY.

Sorry, didn't realise your jumbled sentences were responses to my questions. Still, I believe you only directly answered the first question but whatever...

LMAO @ your claim that you're not a righty...RIGHT

No, I'm not a parent. Much too smart to take on that pointless burden. What did I accuse you of being, besides a righty?

You're presuming that a parent can get an 11 yr old to stop having sex which is highly unlikely given that if the parent had such control, the 11 yr old wouldn't have engaged in sexual activity at all.

However, let's do it your way....

11 yr old is sexually active, goes to parent, says "I'm sexually active, I need some birth control". Parent goes crazy, trys to "fix kid". This doesn't work. Parent continues to refuse to give consent for birth control. Kid continues to have sex....result, teenage pregnancies.

Let's do it Maine's way...

11 yr old is sexually active, goes to nurse at health center, requests birth control prescription. Nurse suggests that 11 yr old talk to parents. 11 yr old talks to parents, returns for prescription, gets prescription. Parent's attempts to "fix" kid doesn't work. Kid continues to have sex, but doesn't get pregnant

Who is harmed by the second scenario? No parent has to sign the consent form for the kid to receive health services from the school center. The center provides birth control prescriptions only for those sexually active kids who actively make a request. Those kids more than likely are from high risk homes where it's unlikely that parental interest/objection is going to cause a change in behaviour.

Your position is essentially, we'll risk 100 kids getting pregnant at age 11, so that 5 parents can have the opportunity to "try to make their kids stop having sex". That's not good public policy.

(Now, if you suggest that a kid who requests a birth control prescription be required to go through some type of counseling as a prerequisite to getting the birth control, that would be a more logical position than one of "let's allow parents to stand in the way of sexually active kids having access to birth control on the unlikely hope that the parents can make them stop.)

Side effects from the pill are rare and largely based on preexisting medical conditions which is why physical examinations are performed before the pill is prescribed. Aspirin also has side effects but parental permission isn't required for a kid to buy/take aspirin. Do you also object to that?

Wildo7 · 10-23-2007, 01:40 AM

This poll is completely inherently biased and unfairly persuasive. I've worked for a polling agency here in DC before, and this poll would fail any credible validity test. Not only is the question designed to obviously elicit a certain response, but the sample size is totally unrepresentative and tainted by the responders knowledge of each other and prior arguments on the subject along with the goal of the poll (to beat the liberal scumbags).

So I don't mind continuing a discussion of this topic (though I felt we reached an impasse due to willful ignorance and head-splitting repetition of redundant and merit-less posts in the other thread) but I'd advise anyone who wants to thoughtfully discuss this topic as an adult to not succumb to the pathetic "I'm right because 12 people on an internet forum clicked no to a totally silly and loaded question."

I've already articulated the reasons why your points are reactionary, illogical and totally baseless, but you clearly don't understand why not only are you so very wrong about this issue and your greater angry, bitter and purposefully careless outlook on life, but you will never succeed in denying other people's children ability to protect themselves.

***DarrylS*** · 10-23-2007, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patters

There's no transference in a school system simply because they are terribly understaffed when it comes to treating psychological problems. The whole issue about the pill or anything of that nature is not about reasonably healthy kids, it's about kids who have real problems. The right to prescribe birth control is simply something that may be useful in a very limited number of situations. If there's any evidence that the school system wants to give out birth control all girls, then something's terribly wrong, but I think what the school wants is that option in the 1 in 100 cases where it may be suitable.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but the denial of transferrence in day to day functioning of school issues with kids, is denying just about anything we know about helping people. Denying transferrence is denying the process is denying the therapeutic process. Nothing you can say will ever make me change the way I feel.. to assume that this will only occur for sexually abused children, begs the question.. if abuse is the issue we are going to help them by giving out BC and justifying their sexual promiscuity, call me old fashioned by try treating them and helping them deal with their abuse. I did a lot of abuse work in my unretired years, and although promiscuity is a major theme, it is not the only theme by giving them BC will not make things better, it just rationalizes their sexual acting out by systems in general.

I know about confidential health care, worked with kids for 30+ years, but nothing can tell me that an 11 or 12 year old should be making decisions about their bodies at this age, to this day I still work with 11-12 year olds in a volunteer setting, and they do not have the maturity to be making decisions about sexual behavior.

***Patters*** · 10-23-2007, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJAJ15

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but the denial of transference in day to day functioning of school issues with kids, is denying just about anything we know about helping people. Denying transference is denying the process is denying the therapeutic process. Nothing you can say will ever make me change the way I feel. To assume that this will only occur for sexually abused children, begs the question.

Most troubled kids in a school system do not spend that much time with school therapists and medical staff for transference to take place. Most school therapists are more involved in testing than counseling. (I am assuming any decision to hand out BC would come from therapists and medical staff, not teachers.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJAJ15

if abuse is the issue we are going to help them by giving out BC and justifying their sexual promiscuity, call me old fashioned by try treating them and helping them deal with their abuse. I did a lot of abuse work in my unretired years, and although promiscuity is a major theme, it is not the only theme by giving them BC will not make things better, it just rationalizes their sexual acting out by systems in general.

If a kid is sexually active, and you have no way to stop that kid's behavior, then BC, condoms, etc. is better than nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJAJ15

I know about confidential health care, worked with kids for 30+ years, but nothing can tell me that an 11 or 12 year old should be making decisions about their bodies at this age, to this day I still work with 11-12 year olds in a volunteer setting, and they do not have the maturity to be making decisions about sexual behavior.

I agree.

***Harry Boy*** · 10-23-2007, 06:33 AM

We won't have to fire a shot, you will destroy yourselves from within
Kruschev To JFK(We are now in the process of doing just that)

ArmyPatsFan · 10-23-2007, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PF1996

"Your perspective" is your "emotion". It isn't FACTS. If your "perspective" includes valid facts, do present them. Otherwise, it's nothing more than your "feeling as a parent", which is an emotion, not a relevant and objective FACT.

Where are your valid facts that you keep harping on......I see alot of opinions which are not objective....show me.

Typical righty, probably because your type typically lacks facts to support your position, to use the idiotic tactic "my opinion is valid because a lot of people agree with me". As I've already explained to several other righties on this board....validity ISN'T determined by POPULARITY.
Again...your proof is that your view is the right one? We disagree...bottom line.

Sorry, didn't realise your jumbled sentences were responses to my questions. Still, I believe you only directly answered the first question but whatever...

LMAO @ your claim that you're not a righty...RIGHT

Yup....you are clueless

No, I'm not a parent. Much too smart to take on that pointless burden. What did I accuse you of being, besides a righty?

So children are pointless burdens.....now I see your biased perspective

You're presuming that a parent can get an 11 yr old to stop having sex which is highly unlikely given that if the parent had such control, the 11 yr old wouldn't have engaged in sexual activity at all.

Highly unlikely?.....got the fact to support that or ar you just making that up? The root cause could have been all the scenarios that I last pointed out that a parent could help....ya know....parent and teach.

However, let's do it your way....

11 yr old is sexually active, goes to parent, says "I'm sexually active, I need some birth control". Parent goes crazy, trys to "fix kid". This doesn't work. Parent continues to refuse to give consent for birth control. Kid continues to have sex....result, teenage pregnancies.

Let's do it Maine's way...

11 yr old is sexually active, goes to nurse at health center, requests birth control prescription. Nurse suggests that 11 yr old talk to parents. 11 yr old talks to parents, returns for prescription, gets prescription. Parent's attempts to "fix" kid doesn't work. Kid continues to have sex, but doesn't get pregnant

Who is harmed by the second scenario? The KID is harmed in both ways....but I can see that you only want to treat the symptom and not the diseaseNo parent has to sign the consent form for the kid to receive health services from the school center. The center provides birth control prescriptions only for those sexually active kids who actively make a request. Those kids more than likely are from high risk homes where it's unlikely that parental interest/objection is going to cause a change in behaviour.

Your position is essentially, we'll risk 100 kids getting pregnant at age 11, so that 5 parents can have the opportunity to "try to make their kids stop having sex". That's not good public policy.

(Now, if you suggest that a kid who requests a birth control prescription be required to go through some type of counseling as a prerequisite to getting the birth control, that would be a more logical position than one of "let's allow parents to stand in the way of sexually active kids having access to birth control on the unlikely hope that the parents can make them stop.)

Side effects from the pill are rare and largely based on preexisting medical conditions which is why physical examinations are performed before the pill is prescribed. Aspirin also has side effects but parental permission isn't required for a kid to buy/take aspirin. Do you also object to that?

You claim that they are based on preexisting medical conditions....you must be a doctor. Since you are you would know that it immediately compromises the endocrine system....right? In schools in my community, aspirin is not even given by the nurse without parental consent.......and you want to give a regulated drug out without it. With that I need to entrust that this physical exam uncovers all the potential issues with family medical history, medication allergies, etc.....

I agree with some of your points.... and would agree to the counselor scenario with restrictions.

We disagree on the role a parent can have in guiding and teaching an 11 year old. We differ on whether a regulated drug should be given to my child without my approval/notification. We differ on thinking that children are a burden.

With that I will let you have the last word to make yourself happy.