BelichickFan

Those people shouldn't be in the stock market - not with the money they might need anyway. They can get a solid 3-6% in some bonds with money they might need. The money they put in the stock market should be to grow wealth. Even if it's just $20 and month that won't grow a big nestegg for them, then it's a great start for their kids. $20 a month from age 25 to 64 will be $100K ($9600 put in) at 8% and $300K at the 12% the S&P 500 historically makes.

The stock market isn't a magic want. It can't make something out of nothing. But most people could find $20 a month to get wealth building started.

Patters

I don't disagree with your point (though I think your numbers are a little high), but it still depends on the period you choose. Obviously, some time ranges are better than others.

Yesterday, I watched an old woman first try to withdraw one sum of money from an ATM, but finally settled for $20 from an ATM, and was I was thinking how unfair that private tax ($2 fee) is for poor people. My point is that for some people even $20 may be a lot. It might be better put to a child's college education, a house, a car to get to work, or something else. When you're poor, you have to make choices. When I first dropped out of college, I lived poor (refusing money from my folks), holding down lousy jobs that paid barely more than minimum wage. I can tell you for a fact, up until I was about 24, I never had money to save and could barely pay my bills, and believe me I lived poor. Have you ever been poor?

BelichickFan

I used historically correct returns. Do it for yourself :

http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator...calculator.htm

Never been dirt poor as I actually paid attention in school and got a decent job. But my starting salary back in 1990 was $25K - not poor but not exactly a Mercedes buying salary either.

Patters

Am I doing it wrong? I entered $240 ($20x12), 39 years to grow, and get $61K (8%) or $139K (12%)? At any rate, it's not really the point, since we're not taking into account inflation or the ability of people to increase their monthly contribution over time.

Then maybe you don't realize how hard it can be to save even a small amount on a consistent basis.

BelichickFan

No I screwed up, I accidentally did $30 a month. Inflation takes off about 1/3 of it right now - unless you want to go back to the Carter years

I don't believe that MOST (not all) people can't eek out $20 a month if they try. It's mostly about decisions. I made it through college at $5 an hour by having 3 roommates and paying $120 a month for rent, having no car and not eating out. Once I got a better job I did more of that stuff. Wow. If people can't do that because they have two kids when they get out of high school, well, that's their choice isn't it. It's not the lack of an American Dream that stopped them, it's themselves.

QuiGon

No, when determining how far a market has fallen, an economist would take the highest close-of-day reading and use that as the base.
I think we both know that that's ridiculous. The policies of an adminstration in office for 8 years are going to control at least the first 2 months of a new administration. Personally, I would say it lasts even longer than that but for the sake of this argument, all I need is to use a 2 month period.
Translation: You gladly talked about the S&P 500 when it suited you, but since I completely destroyed your arguments (not to mention your calculations), all of sudden it's "uhh... well... well... what about NASDAQ..?!?"

BelichickFan

I think we differ on what the American Dream is.

People like Patters seem to think it's that everyone will have a great life however lazy they are or however stupid the decisions they make are.

I think it's that everyone will have the OPPORTUNITY to have a great life if they work hard anough and make good decisions.

Patters

Oh, so you don't believe in trend lines? I guess you don't know economics.

I don't deny that. (I suppose then we can blame Bush I for the first WTC attack. Glad you agree. LOL.) But, the fact is Clinton was not able to address the economic situation since he was not in office. If Clinton had been in office, I think he would have taken steps to prevent the problems that would soon follow. All Bush did really was deficit spend, which pumped vastly more money into the economy than his tax cut. And I will concede deficit spending does give an economy a temporary boost.

Now, you're being deceitful. You made the claim we completely recovered, and I simply pointed out that's not true. Obviously, the S&P has returned to Clinton levels, but the NASDAQ has not. Or perhaps you meant something different when you said, "we completely recovered." Care to spin those words?

QuiGon

Amen. My current sig (which I came up with before this thread began) addresses this issue perfectly. As a Conservative, I favor freedom over government intrusion. Problem is when people are free to their own devices, you're going to have inequality. Smart and hard working people are going to succeed moreso than the rest (liberals want you to believe that luck is the only factor at play, which is a ridiculous fallacy).

A liberal is only happy when the government mandates equal misery amongst the populace.

QuiGon

Oh, I wager I know a hell of a lot more about it than you (as evidenced by this thread).
What part of "I would say it lasts even longer than that but for the sake of this argument, all I need is to use a 2 month period" did you not understand..?

Oh wait, I get it... you're doing what you always do... simply lying about and deliberately misrepresenting things Conservatives say...
So if Clinton was in office in February and March of 2001, he would have taken steps to prevent the decline suffered during the first quarter of that year...? Hmmmm....
Well, I thought it was quite obvious that you and I were discussing the S&P 500. BF brought it up and you and I both took it from there - you even went so far as to give a link to the historical prices of the S&P 500... It was only after you humiliated yourself that you tried to change the subject to "NASDAQ"...