Real World

If a person dies of natural causes, do you say he/she was murdered? No.

If a person was deliberately killed by another human being, do you say he/she was murdered? Yes.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Patters

It's not pointless. Someone who unequivocally believes abortion is murder would certainly favor wasting money if that was the only way to get an anti-abortion bill passed. But, I think many social conservatives choose issues that won't cost them a thing either materially or personally. You rarely hear social conservatives condemn adultery, pornography, or avarice with the same vigor that they do gay rights and abortion. Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't many social conservatives (not to mention liberals) who oppose abortion from the bottom of their hearts.

Pujo

The key word in all of that is person. I'm not about to have another debate on the merits of personhood, but that's where the disagreement lies.

Pujo

The second part of your statement does not follow from the first. Is it more expensive for conservatives to fight adultery, pornography, or avarice (whatever that is) than it is to fight gay rights and abortion? Otherwise I don't see how those examples support your point.

Real World

I'd have to know the specifics of the bill. Raising taxes is not something we need to do. I'm of the opinion, and I think most others in here would agree, that we tax and spend too much. I think we could do all that you'd want to do with the tax structure we have. All we'd have to do is reorganize who gets budget money, and how it's spent. Again though, to me, abortion and finances are not one and the same. You don't kill a baby because the government won't give you welfare. That's BS. You can give the child up for adoption. People want to kill babies because they don't want the responsibility. I'd let people kill babies if they had to have their tubes tied in the process. I can guarantee you that abortions would drop 90% if that were the case.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Real World

What maroonery logic. This is why I think some people are space shots. So the only way to get what you want is to PAAAAAAAY the ransom. What retarded, azz backwards logic. Then people wonder why we're $8+ Trillion in debt. Pols in DC use that stupidity all the time. Vote for my bill and I'll give you that $$ for your bridge. Vote for mine and I'll give you that $$ for your spinich farmer. Whatever happens to principles and accountability?

What do abortion and gay rights have to do with each other? NOTHING!

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Real World

Bull*****. That crap is a cop out and 99% of people know that. A "bunch of cells" is utter BS. That's just an excuse to justify murdering a baby, by making some mental simpletons feel better about themselves. Talk to a woman who's 4 months pregnant and loses her child, and try to tell her it was a bunch of cells. I don't even vote with abortion in mind. I think most politicians are forced to pick a side, and don't really feel that a single politician makes much of a difference on this issue. Politicians should focus their attention on government and not social issues like abortion. Obviously it is an important issue, but I never let it affect my voting stance. I don't hold a sign, would never blow up a clinic, and consider the issue low on my political totum pole. However, it upsets me when people refuse to see it for what it is, and that's murder, or contraception on demand.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Pujo

I'm sorry to keep chiming in, but bad logic in debates always gets me.

Quetion: "What do abortion and gay rights have to do with each other?" Answer: They are both important issues for the religious right. Now, I don't understand what cost has to do with it, but connecting abortion and gay rights isn't a leap of faith.

Real World

um, when you have a discussion about abortion, and someone mentions gay rights, it's off topic.

IRAAAAAAAAAQ!

That would have made as much sense.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Pujo

I have no stake in the abortion debate, I'm not getting one, but I just don't see it as murder. Again, I just don't. And I bet the 50 or so % of Americans that support abortion rights don't, either. I'm not saying that a fetus is an inanimate collection of cells, but when I have to balance the right of the undeveloped fetus against the right of the mother to remove it from her body, I will always support the right of the mother. Always.