Hitler's legacy: Islamic Antisemitism in the Middle East - New England Patriots Forums

PonyExpress · 06-24-2007, 09:28 AM

Translated from a german article written by scholar Matthias Kuentzel. It concerns the revival of nazi ideology in the muslim world. Must read for comprehension of current state of Middle Eastern affairs.

http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/conte...he-middle-east

***Harry Boy*** · 06-24-2007, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PonyExpress

Translated from a german article written by scholar Matthias Kuentzel. It concerns the revival of nazi ideology in the muslim world. Must read for comprehension of current state of Middle Eastern affairs.

http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/conte...he-middle-east

In other words Islam not only wants Israel, they want the WORLD.
(your not supposed to say this though, politically incorrect"

The Gr8est · 06-25-2007, 03:21 PM

Excellent article Pony, and thanx for posting it. I didn't know where the Muslims got the idea that the holocaust never happened, and this article does a great job of covering the major historical roots of the whole Jew/Muslim conflict.

It's surprising how little traffic this excellent post has gotten.

PatsFanInVa · 06-25-2007, 04:02 PM

It's been discussed in the posts next door in passing, and is a spirited and accurate (if somewhat one-dimensional) read.

Kuenstler's right as far as he goes. It's worth noting, though, that there were real events on the ground that could be "glossed" with these repugnant ideas, at every turn. The common fellahin who were displaced little by little at the outset of the Zionist movement, are not even mentioned. It appears here that Jews were invited in and loved by most, until the "bad guys" came along with Nazi antisemitic ideas - as I said, a tad one-dimensional. There was tinder there for the fire, regardless of what one thinks of the legitimacy of the claims (they don't carry much weight with me, for example, at least not in any absolute sense; but then, I am a Zionist.)

By the way, Kuenstler mentions the "first ever" plan for partition of the Palestine mandate as the Peal Plan in '37. Look it up, check out the maps, etc. It was an excellent deal, from the Arab point of view, if you were capable of digesting the notion of a partition.

But it was not the "first ever" partition of the mandate. That was the carving off of "Transjordan" (later, Jordan,) in the early 20s. Transjordan was declared "judenrein," in Nazi parlance. No Jew could live there, own property there, or so much as set foot there. This was to provide assurance that the Jewish presence -- not yet national or military, but solely economic -- would not be allowed unlimited freedom within the British middle east. How easy, to create one more Arab Muslim nation! How controversial, when a single Jewish state seized its own sovereignty from the British -- who would just as soon never have issued the Balfour declaration, when the "new face of the Middle East" became evident.

By the way, on the subject of the upheaval that resulted in the "new order" in the region, around mid-century: an excellent souce for the flavor of the "old" seeing the emergence of the "new" in Egypt, is Laurence Durrell's Alexandria Quartet. Brilliant writing... and so full of the polyglot life of Alexandria early last century, that I'd do it a disservice were I to attempt to describe it.

Finally: bear in mind that when we talk about Islamic modernism, we were talking at all junctures of an elite phenomenon. The Shah of Iran and Sadat were both looked on as silly playboys in their respective countries, and the somewhat more statesmenlike leaders of the Arab League -- themselves public proponents of a total war against Israel -- were swept aside after 1948, each of them the victim of an assassination, almost to the man.

Mass consciousness was never quite up to the picture Kuenstler paints, regardless of the fact that there were always elites who could maintain both Islamic and Nationalist identities. The roots never reached all the way down, it would appear, and I would argue that it was not solely Nazi anti-Semitism that uprooted pro-Western modernism in the Middle East, but the awakening of the hitherto inert impulses of the so called "Arab street." Nasser took great advantage of those impulses, but could not have, were those impulses not there to exploit.

A final coda: Kuenstler does do us all a service by disposing of this notion of the centrality of anti-Semitism in Islam. One can no more argue its centrality to Islam, than one can argue its centrality to Christianity. In either case, one has to work very hard to make the whole religion "evil."

Many people do just that, in our turbulent times... but anti-Semitism is the sine qua non of neither religion. It is only the dispensationists among Christians and Muslims -- those who focus of God's swapping the Jews for a successor group -- who attempt to bring anti-Semitism to the fore, for theological reasons. While this notion can slumber within either religion for centuries, it can also burst onto the scene, guns blazing. The idea is unfortunately there to exploit in either case. It is a necessary focus in neither case.

PFnV

Lifer · 06-25-2007, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsFanInVa

It's been discussed in the posts next door in passing, and is a spirited and accurate (if somewhat one-dimensional) read.

Kuenstler's right as far as he goes. It's worth noting, though, that there were real events on the ground that could be "glossed" with these repugnant ideas, at every turn. The common fellahin who were displaced little by little at the outset of the Zionist movement, are not even mentioned. It appears here that Jews were invited in and loved by most, until the "bad guys" came along with Nazi antisemitic ideas - as I said, a tad one-dimensional. There was tinder there for the fire, regardless of what one thinks of the legitimacy of the claims (they don't carry much weight with me, for example, at least not in any absolute sense; but then, I am a Zionist.)

By the way, Kuenstler mentions the "first ever" plan for partition of the Palestine mandate as the Peal Plan in '37. Look it up, check out the maps, etc. It was an excellent deal, from the Arab point of view, if you were capable of digesting the notion of a partition.

But it was not the "first ever" partition of the mandate. That was the carving off of "Transjordan" (later, Jordan,) in the early 20s. Transjordan was declared "judenrein," in Nazi parlance. No Jew could live there, own property there, or so much as set foot there. This was to provide assurance that the Jewish presence -- not yet national or military, but solely economic -- would not be allowed unlimited freedom within the British middle east. How easy, to create one more Arab Muslim nation! How controversial, when a single Jewish state seized its own sovereignty from the British -- who would just as soon never have issued the Balfour declaration, when the "new face of the Middle East" became evident.

By the way, on the subject of the upheaval that resulted in the "new order" in the region, around mid-century: an excellent souce for the flavor of the "old" seeing the emergence of the "new" in Egypt, is Laurence Durrell's Alexandria Quartet. Brilliant writing... and so full of the polyglot life of Alexandria early last century, that I'd do it a disservice were I to attempt to describe it.

Finally: bear in mind that when we talk about Islamic modernism, we were talking at all junctures of an elite phenomenon. The Shah of Iran and Sadat were both looked on as silly playboys in their respective countries, and the somewhat more statesmenlike leaders of the Arab League -- themselves public proponents of a total war against Israel -- were swept aside after 1948, each of them the victim of an assassination, almost to the man.

Mass consciousness was never quite up to the picture Kuenstler paints, regardless of the fact that there were always elites who could maintain both Islamic and Nationalist identities. The roots never reached all the way down, it would appear, and I would argue that it was not solely Nazi anti-Semitism that uprooted pro-Western modernism in the Middle East, but the awakening of the hitherto inert impulses of the so called "Arab street." Nasser took great advantage of those impulses, but could not have, were those impulses not there to exploit.

A final coda: Kuenstler does do us all a service by disposing of this notion of the centrality of anti-Semitism in Islam. One can no more argue its centrality to Islam, than one can argue its centrality to Christianity. In either case, one has to work very hard to make the whole religion "evil."

Many people do just that, in our turbulent times... but anti-Semitism is the sine qua non of neither religion. It is only the dispensationists among Christians and Muslims -- those who focus of God's swapping the Jews for a successor group -- who attempt to bring anti-Semitism to the fore, for theological reasons. While this notion can slumber within either religion for centuries, it can also burst onto the scene, guns blazing. The idea is unfortunately there to exploit in either case. It is a necessary focus in neither case.

PFnV

"Now who can argue with that?"
- Blazing Saddles

PonyExpress · 09-28-2008, 11:59 AM

Bump...........

***maverick4*** · 09-28-2008, 12:05 PM

If Muslims are so anti-semitic, why do Jews live peacefully in Iran and other Middle Eastern states? Why have they lived there no problem for thousands of years, until the past few decades?

Might it be because it's not anti-semitism, but rather resentment over violence and uprooting of Palestinian people?

Criticizing Zionists is not anti-semitic, though extremists such as yourself seem to think the two are the same.

***patsfan13*** · 09-28-2008, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maverick4

If Muslims are so anti-semitic, why do Jews live peacefully in Iran and other Middle Eastern states? Why have they lived there no problem for thousands of years, until the past few decades?

Might it be because it's not anti-semitism, but rather resentment over violence and uprooting of Palestinian people?

Criticizing Zionists is not anti-semitic, though extremists such as yourself seem to think the two are the same.

If they are allowed to live at all it is a dhimmi's, seen any new synagogues in Tehran recently. You seem to have a real problem when it comes to Jews...

***maverick4*** · 09-28-2008, 12:16 PM

In a way the title of this thread is true, though way too many Zionists purposely call what is anti-Zionism the same thing as anti-semitism when it is not.

The legacy of resentment towards certain Jewish people by Muslims in the Middle East can be traced back to the creation of Israel, and the subsequent violence and relocations forced upon Palestinians.

So in a way, this did come as a result of Hitler's actions in Germany.

But the rest of the article is complete crap, just more intellectual masturbation to create a picture of an extreme radical Muslim civilization that will stop at nothing but to annihilate or take over the world, when the root cause is Zionism, not any historical problem with Jewish people.